Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

[WildCat]

Funding of Violent groups is bad.
No mather if it is Chavez funding violent groups or the CIA funding violent groups or Iran that funds violent groups.

His Dictator Power?
things like Veto or Continuity in Government? oh no thats not Venezuela

No, things like ruling by decree. To compare that to a veto shows an astonishing lack of understanding.

Wildcat? So you was against the Coup that wanted to replace Chavez?

I'm against coups when democratic means of replacing the head of state are available.

btw, what exactly makes him a Dictator?

When you can rule by decree, otherwise known as dictatorial powers.

I honestly think the USA is closer to Dictatorship than Venezuale is atm.
you only need an event like 9/11. NSPD51 was also said to give Dictator Powers, is that true?

No US official has anything approaching the powers that Chavez has in Venezuala.

Bush does not have dictatorial powers, and neither does Cheney btw. Chavez certainly does, wait and see as the events unfold at the end of his term.

 

[dudalb]

I guess the concept of someone who is popularly elected becoming a dicatator when in office is incomprehensible to some people, despite the long ,sad history of this happening from Julius Caeser on.

 

[Praktik]

Chavez certainly does, wait and see as the events unfold at the end of his term.

Ah yes, the "you'll see!" canard. Oft-used by NWO true believers breathlessly warning us of impending martial law every year...

Look, who knows WildCat, maybe your worst fears will be realized and Stalin 2.0 will come to be in Venezuela.

I'm not holding my breath.

 

[RandFan]

because its not called reforms in the USA?

No, it's called reform in Venezuala. Bush will be gone in January and he has not moved to ensure he stays there. Chavez?

 

[DC]

No, things like ruling by decree. To compare that to a veto shows an astonishing lack of understanding.


I'm against coups when democratic means of replacing the head of state are available.


When you can rule by decree, otherwise known as dictatorial powers.


No US official has anything approaching the powers that Chavez has in Venezuala.

Bush does not have dictatorial powers, and neither does Cheney btw. Chavez certainly does, wait and see as the events unfold at the end of his term.

Was you against the coup in 2002?

 

[DC]

No, it's called reform in Venezuala. Bush will be gone in January and he has not moved to ensure he stays there. Chavez?

Chavez wanted to be able to run more times as he is allowed now.
But would still be needed to be elected.

what is wrong with it?

 

[RandFan]

Chavez wanted to be able to run more times as he is allowed now.
But would still be needed to be elected.

what is wrong with it?

Incumbants are far more likely to be elected than those who are not. The leader of a nation has tremendous power, resources and access to the public.

If you would forgive me, let me ask you a question. Why have some of his closest advisors left him?

 

[WildCat]

Ah yes, the "you'll see!" canard. Oft-used by NWO true believers breathlessly warning us of impending martial law every year...

Not speculation, an educated guess. He's already doing the prep work we've seen so often in that region - packing the Supreme Court, ruling by decree, cracking down on opposition media. Doesn't take psychic powers to see what's coming next.

Look, who knows WildCat, maybe your worst fears will be realized and Stalin 2.0 will come to be in Venezuela.

Stalin? Doesn't he wish! More like Mugabe 2.0.

I'm not holding my breath.

is it too early for an avatar bet?

 

[DC]

Incumbants are far more likely to be elected than those who are not. The leader of a nation has tremendous power, resources and access to the public.

mmhh after USA 2004 you have some kind of point there maybe.
those not in power can promise alot of cool things, alot of change and so on. While the one in power can only try to blandish the current situation.
And i dont know where it is more difficult to get media coverage for Politic, in the USA or in Venezuela. I missed the National presidental candidate debates with the Green Party, the Socialist Party, the Independent Party or any other party than the dems and reps.

If you would forgive me, let me ask you a question. Why have some of his closest advisors left him?

Many have left him druning his many years as President, witch one do you mean?
Miquilena?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Ah yes, the "you'll see!" canard. Oft-used by NWO true believers breathlessly warning us of impending martial law every year...

I don't think the "you'll see" canard is even necessary to demonstrate Chavez's politics. Completely revising the constitution, eliminating presidential term limits, skyrocketing crime rates, his oil based nationalization crumbling his economy (which his country is already having problems with).

How about the domestic spying decree he proposed recently? It sparked outrage from even his own supporters...

I'll have to disagree with wildcat... not "you'll see", rather "you saw". The only reason Chavez didn't get passed is because he managed to piss off his own people by doing so. Still, that he proposed to have that amendment in the first place is disturbing in of itself

 

[DC]

- packing the Supreme Court

How is that done in Venezuela?
Chavez increased the number of members from 20 to 32.

Did Chavez decide who will get the new places in the Supreme Court or was it the National Assembly?

 

[Praktik]

I don't think the "you'll see" canard is even necessary to demonstrate Chavez's politics. Completely revising the constitution, eliminating presidential term limits, skyrocketing crime rates, his oil based nationalization crumbling his economy (which his country is already having problems with).

How about the domestic spying decree he proposed recently? It sparked outrage from even his own supporters...

I'll have to disagree with wildcat... not "you'll see", rather "you saw". The only reason Chavez didn't get passed is because he managed to piss off his own people by doing so. Still, that he proposed to have that amendment in the first place is disturbing in of itself

Domestic spying - my lord the humanity!! Has Chavez no decency? When will he take a cue from that beacon of democracy, America, where domestic spying has been curtailed to the point of inneffectualness due to their high moral and democratic standards? Oh wait, looks like that legislation IS taking a cue from America, Britain and other states we like to use as models for the way things should be done. You know what Mugabe said in response to criticism regarding his draconian surveillance laws? "America does it too..."

No one's denying he's a megalomaniac - no one can deny that he's taken steps to amplify his power. But is he a "Brutal Dictator"? I think not... He's a democratically elected megalomaniac and thats the same way he'll exit the political stage.

Sure, his economic policies are almost completey opposed to the Washington Consensus but aren't independent countries allowed to pursue their own course domestically, whether we think its wise or not?

Nationalization of industries is not the exclusive province of "Dictators" - its happened in democratic countries the world over and if you really think thats the wrong course then isn't the best thing to let them learn their hard lessons so any course-correction back to the Glories of the Free Market has a better chance of acceptance in the political culture?

 

[DC]

What is the problem with a new Constitution? Aslong the people can decide.

Nationalisation of Oil is a must. It belongs to the people, they shall controll it.

I also think Chavez should do alot lot more against the crime rates. Alsong he is not able to spread the wealth more evenly in that country it will be hard. He should do directly something against the crime rates. More armed Police. will lower crime rates and bonus is our media can acuse him of creating a police state.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

Interesting news-clip about the elections (7 min.): The media and the Venezuelan elections (The real news network).

In general I'm growing more and more fond of alternative news media outlets, as a sort of balancing act to big corporate media.

 

[WildCat]

Nationalisation of Oil is a must. It belongs to the people, they shall controll it.

The oil already did belong to "the people". What Chavez did was seize the drilling rigs, equipment, etc from the various private entities that owned them and certainly did not belong to "the people".

And I predict Chavez and his cronies will screw up their nationalized oil industry with corruption in much the same way Mexico made Pemex the basket case it is.

 

[DC]

Wildcat
Was you against the coup in 2002?

Did Chavez decide who will get the new places in the Supreme Court or was it the National Assembly?

 

[WildCat]

Wildcat
Was you against the coup in 2002?

Yes. Coups have no place when a democratic means exists.

Did Chavez decide who will get the new places in the Supreme Court or was it the National Assembly?

Chavez hand picked them.

 

[DC]

Yes. Coups have no place when a democratic means exists.

thanks for the clear answer

btw the opposition had the abillity to choose a democratic way in the case of RCTV. They choosed the propaganda way.

they could have collected signatures for a referendum that would advice to renew the license for terrestrial broadcasting. I would say they would have had no problem collecting the needed numbers. they didnt.

Chavez hand picked them.

so it was done like in the US?
the President picks them and the Senate / National assembly decides yes or no.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Domestic spying - my lord the humanity!! Has Chavez no decency? When will he take a cue from that beacon of democracy, America, where domestic spying has been curtailed to the point of inneffectualness due to their high moral and democratic standards? Oh wait, looks like that legislation IS taking a cue from America, Britain and other states we like to use as models for the way things should be done. You know what Mugabe said in response to criticism regarding his draconian surveillance laws? "America does it too..."

Yes and what what was it that Chavez decided he would do to neighbors who refused to adhere to his decree for the domestic spying policy... Somewhere I recall fears of imprisonment for civilians failing to act as his informants. I'm not interested in playing the morality game between who does what. Do you think I like the patriot act any better despite the merits it's based on?

No one's denying he's a megalomaniac - no one can deny that he's taken steps to amplify his power. But is he a "Brutal Dictator"? I think not... He's a democratically elected megalomaniac and thats the same way he'll exit the political stage.

Providing of course the tenuous balance between the democratic processes and his executive authority remains in place. From his flip-flopping on the domestic spying legislation he tried to pass, slow and steady wins the race, and he understands that concept quite well. He's been developing his practices for the last 10 years he's been in office. Maybe he will be voted out before he takes his policies too far, but I'm not optimistic if he gets the legislation to eliminate term limits passed.

Sure, his economic policies are almost completey opposed to the Washington Consensus but aren't independent countries allowed to pursue their own course domestically, whether we think its wise or not?

Sure, it's their business how their policies play out, but it doesn't stop me or you alike from having independent opinions on their politics.

Nationalization of industries is not the exclusive province of "Dictators" - its happened in democratic countries the world over and if you really think thats the wrong course then isn't the best thing to let them learn their hard lessons so any course-correction back to the Glories of the Free Market has a better chance of acceptance in the political culture?

I'm against nationalization of many things... but don't place Chavez's practices of nationalization in the same league as other countries... Europe for example is fairing better economically than Venezuela. Chavez is making the mistake of relying too much on his oil industry to provide for the services he nationalizes, and oil prices aren't static figures.

 

[RandFan]

Imho

Chavez was a sincere agent for change and he truly cared about the people. I think Chavez lakes the competency to make reforms and sadly he ostracized the people who could best help him make the reforms. He has become ineffectual. Perhaps, as I said before, he is the best and only hope for Venezuela. For the sake of Venezuelans, I hope not.