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Sell me Linux

jbm said:
shutdown /s /f /t 30 /m \\computername
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This is not totally useful as presented. Does the user open a command-line window and type this sequence each time, or does the user put that command into a file somewhere so that it is the default action when <shut down> is clicked from the start menu? If the latter, in what file is it put, or in which directory under which file name?

Is the average user that quadraginta mentioned several posts back [eta, post # 72] going to be able to do either of these?

Also, if the computer is not part of a network, why is the computer name part of the command needed?
 
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The computer name isn't needed if you're on the computer you're shutting down. It could save Godmark2 the trouble of walking "into someone's office".

It's a command line that you do when you want to force a shutdown on a computer on your network. Proper admin rights have to already have been established.

ETA: shutdown/? for further help.
 
RecoveringYuppie,

Think about the computer user who kinda understands double-click, but isn't sure what a context-sensitive menu is, and (I saw this two weeks ago) doesn't understand the difference between "home page" on a browser, and the Windows desktop.

Do you think that person is going to go to Start -> run -> command line, and type the shutdown command each time? Unlikely.



(By the way, I live near Rillito Park Racetrack.)
 
GodMark sounds like he can handle it but I wouldn't recommend it to causal users of desktop computers at all. I'm surprised casual users exist at all. Desktop computer are far from an appliance.

And I'm not far from the Racetrack.
 
Just make a shortcut and set it to call that command. I usually put a shutdown button on the task bar and give it the big red shutdown icon. One click to shut down. Got one for reboot as well.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
The computer name isn't needed if you're on the computer you're shutting down. It could save Godmark2 the trouble of walking "into someone's office".

It's a command line that you do when you want to force a shutdown on a computer on your network. Proper admin rights have to already have been established.

ETA: shutdown/? for further help.
Click to expand...

But it doesn't save the five hours of "computer on time" between the user clicking "Start->Shutdown->nothing" and my time for rounds. It also would bypass the sticky-note-on-the-monitor messaging system saying "Please leave me on, I'm running a test".
 
Soapy Sam said:
Kidding aside, I'm not sure I agree. I've used Windows since 3.1 , during which time it has grown much larger and more complex.

My understanding of it remains adequate for me to do what I want to do, but only just. There's a lot more that I don't know now.

A simple example would be the file system. Under W3.1, the DOS system, with which I was familiar, was retained. My stuff was in C:\Stuff.

Now it's in C:\users\Soapy_sam\desktop\Mystuff. I think. Or scattered across libraries, or virtual folders. I often lose files because Windows, or Windows applications, have saved it in some arcane corner. I find it after searching for a few minutes, but that rather diminishes the value of a processor that's 2000 times (or whatever) faster than the 286 I used way back when.

Sure, it's nice to have bells & whistles on the main PC, but for the old e-book, a cut down version of Windows XP would be rather nice.
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My first real home computer ran on DOS 2.11. A single subdirectory was fine until I got my first hard drive. If I had limited myself to one subdirectory below root after that then things would have been an unholy mess.

Among the more useful third party tools at that time were ones for subdirectory management. Later built into the OS.

Your approach is mimicked by the "MY Documents" concept, which (unsurprisingly) is also picked out as an area of complaint by some kneejerk Windows bashers. (Unsurprisingly because they are gonna find something to bitch about regardless.)
 
Soapy Sam said:
A simple example would be the file system. Under W3.1, the DOS system, with which I was familiar, was retained. My stuff was in C:\Stuff.
Now it's in C:\users\Soapy_sam\desktop\Mystuff. I think. Or scattered across libraries, or virtual folders.
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It's actually in Documents, which is there specifically so that users no longer have that problem.
 
xterra said:
This is not totally useful as presented. Does the user open a command-line window and type this sequence each time, or does the user put that command into a file somewhere so that it is the default action when <shut down> is clicked from the start menu? If the latter, in what file is it put, or in which directory under which file name?

Is the average user that quadraginta mentioned several posts back [eta, post # 72] going to be able to do either of these?

Also, if the computer is not part of a network, why is the computer name part of the command needed?
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The average user I mentioned was just a re-phrasing of GodMark2's "many people think [that] the UI is OS".

A command script for quick shutdown can be put anywhere that is convenient for the user. Put on the task bar. That's pretty convenient.

So is holding down the power button until it overrides the OS.

There are good reasons for prompted, controlled shutdowns. Bypassing those safeguards is trivial. The thing is, if you are dealing with a user who can't be bothered with responding to a simple confirmation prompt then there is only so much you will ever be able to do to make their experience problem free. For them or for you.
 
xterra said:
RecoveringYuppie,

Think about the computer user who kinda understands double-click, but isn't sure what a context-sensitive menu is, and (I saw this two weeks ago) doesn't understand the difference between "home page" on a browser, and the Windows desktop.

Do you think that person is going to go to Start -> run -> command line, and type the shutdown command each time? Unlikely.
Click to expand...


Batch files. Command scripts. This can all be transparent to the clueless user. It'll never be problem free, but there are plenty of alternatives.

When DOS was restricted to a megabyte of address space there were two predominant schemes that developed for getting around the issue. "Extended" memory and "expanded" memory.

The popular games of the time might use one scheme, or might use the other. Thing is, whichever one was used had to be specified on boot up.

My two boys, four y.o. and seven y.o., had games which used one or the other. They weren't going to be able to handle the commands to get the proper memory installed for whichever game they wanted to play, but they could run a batch file that let them choose the game they wanted from a list and then rebooted into the right RAM format.

That's a lot more complex than running a shutdown command. If the users can't cope with running a simple command script they probably are way over their heads just sitting in front of a keyboard.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
GodMark sounds like he can handle it but I wouldn't recommend it to causal users of desktop computers at all. I'm surprised casual users exist at all. Desktop computer are far from an appliance.
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I disagree. They certainly can be. But they don't have to be.

Just because there is some learning curve doesn't mean that it is as long or as steep for ever user. The very meaning of "casual" user implies that the level of involvement needed to operate the equipment for the task desired is relatively small.

It can be made as large as is needed, but it doesn't have to be any larger.

I am reminded of automatic transmissions. There is a surprising number of people around today who would be unable to drive a manual transmission automobile. This does not preclude them from driving. It just limits them to the skills they have developed so far.

They will rarely be inconvenienced by those limits.
 
quadraginta said:
What's the big deal about leaving it on?
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"Company Policy" (probably instituted when even idling computers could keep coffee warm and all monitors were CRT). Electricity may be cheap (depending on where you live) but it still ain't free.

But, a simple solution exists, and has been implemented for at least a decade in KDE on Linux. Why hasn't Microsoft implemented this feature that would take less than a day of developer time? Apparently, the functionality already exists, otherwise the command-line option wouldn't be able to do it. It's just a UI addition to an existing dialog.
 
GodMark2 said:
"Company Policy" (probably instituted when even idling computers could keep coffee warm and all monitors were CRT). Electricity may be cheap (depending on where you live) but it still ain't free.

But, a simple solution exists, and has been implemented for at least a decade in KDE on Linux. Why hasn't Microsoft implemented this feature that would take less than a day of developer time? Apparently, the functionality already exists, otherwise the command-line option wouldn't be able to do it. It's just a UI addition to an existing dialog.
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A simple solution does exist. Several of them.

The simplest is to set up the command line instruction as a shortcut. This page will show you how to do that.

This page will explain the extensive options available for the command line in Win8. You can choose which ones you want for your shortcut, and create as many different shortcuts as you want.

Here's another page which will show you how to set up a whole folder full of alternative shortcut options as a menu you can put on your taskbar. Complete with icons.

You can also set up a Metro tile shutdown shortcut.

Microsoft has implemented all the features you could want for this. You just need to learn to use them. It's part of helping out the "many users" who can't or won't be bothered to respond to a simple confirmation prompt, 'cause they sure aren't going to learn how to do it themselves.

This is why you aren't a "many users".

For many more and different strategies you can Google "shutdown.exe". No need to struggle or suffer.

Of course you are still going to be left with the problem of getting your "many users" to actually use the solutions after you provide them, but that just brings us back where we started. A good sign that the problem doesn't lie with Windows.
 
quadraginta said:
My first real home computer ran on DOS 2.11. A single subdirectory was fine until I got my first hard drive. If I had limited myself to one subdirectory below root after that then things would have been an unholy mess.
Click to expand...

You mistake my meaning. I don't mean everything can be stuffed in one folder. I mean I don't need a multi-user OS on a personal computer. I know who the user is. Me.
Among the more useful third party tools at that time were ones for subdirectory management. Later built into the OS.

Your approach is mimicked by the "MY Documents" concept, which (unsurprisingly) is also picked out as an area of complaint by some kneejerk Windows bashers. (Unsurprisingly because they are gonna find something to bitch about regardless.)
Click to expand...


One only "bashes" things which annoy. Some "improvements" work for some users and are simultaneously an irritation to others. Most of what I know about computer file systems, I learned using DOS 5, 6 and Win 3.1 . Apart from the advent of long file names, none of the changes added to Windows subsequently have made it easier for me personally to manage files. In fact they have made it easier for me to lose them. That's not bashing. It's legitimate grumbling.
 
arthwollipot said:
It's actually in Documents, which is there specifically so that users no longer have that problem.
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There are no documents on my computer, though there are several piled on top of the monitor. And more on the floor.

I must get that bloody scanner fixed.
 
quadraginta said:
A simple solution does exist. Several of them.

The simplest is to set up the command line instruction as a shortcut. This page will show you how to do that.

This page will explain the extensive options available for the command line in Win8. You can choose which ones you want for your shortcut, and create as many different shortcuts as you want.

Here's another page which will show you how to set up a whole folder full of alternative shortcut options as a menu you can put on your taskbar. Complete with icons.

You can also set up a Metro tile shutdown shortcut.

Microsoft has implemented all the features you could want for this. You just need to learn to use them. It's part of helping out the "many users" who can't or won't be bothered to respond to a simple confirmation prompt, 'cause they sure aren't going to learn how to do it themselves.

This is why you aren't a "many users".

For many more and different strategies you can Google "shutdown.exe". No need to struggle or suffer.

Of course you are still going to be left with the problem of getting your "many users" to actually use the solutions after you provide them, but that just brings us back where we started. A good sign that the problem doesn't lie with Windows.
Click to expand...

Wait... I thought one of the reasons to use MS Windows was that you didn't have to get into the guts to make it work.

...and none of those 'fixes' work without retraining the users to not use the shutdown menu item to shutdown.
 
Soapy Sam said:
You mistake my meaning. I don't mean everything can be stuffed in one folder. I mean I don't need a multi-user OS on a personal computer. I know who the user is. Me.
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You may be single; a lot of us aren't. (Four users on my "personal" computer, plus a "guest" account for friends and such.)

In any case, adding a separate user for "adminstrator" (the equivalent of "root" on systems I'm familiar with, like the one that's supposed to be the topic of this thread) has been a huge factor in the fight against malware.

Of course, Unix/Linux has the very helpful shortcut, ~ (tilde), which refers to the your home directory, no matter which user you are. Within ~, you can do whatever you want with your files, and all of your files are there.
 
xtifr said:
You may be single; a lot of us aren't. (Four users on my "personal" computer, plus a "guest" account for friends and such.)

In any case, adding a separate user for "adminstrator" (the equivalent of "root" on systems I'm familiar with, like the one that's supposed to be the topic of this thread) has been a huge factor in the fight against malware.

Of course, Unix/Linux has the very helpful shortcut, ~ (tilde), which refers to the your home directory, no matter which user you are. Within ~, you can do whatever you want with your files, and all of your files are there.
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I'm single, and the only user.

Still have four accounts. (Admin, my standard work account, a guest account [for people who just want to check their email or their flight status etc.], and a "presentation" account [for giving presentations with no danger of private or embarrassing data showing up on the projector]).

And yes, separating Admin and work account for security purposes should be a given. Not that it would save you much work using the Admin account for everyday work on the Mac: It still asks you for your admin password for critical actions if you're on the admin account (though one danger is that the admin password is used for other things if you use it as an everyday work account/password, the keychain access for instance).
 
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Soapy Sam said:
You mistake my meaning. I don't mean everything can be stuffed in one folder. I mean I don't need a multi-user OS on a personal computer. I know who the user is. Me.


One only "bashes" things which annoy. Some "improvements" work for some users and are simultaneously an irritation to others. Most of what I know about computer file systems, I learned using DOS 5, 6 and Win 3.1 . Apart from the advent of long file names, none of the changes added to Windows subsequently have made it easier for me personally to manage files. In fact they have made it easier for me to lose them. That's not bashing. It's legitimate grumbling.
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Well, for one thing you mistake my meaning. I was talking about people bashing Widows for the "My Directory" approach.

And if you were talking about multiple users why are you back to complaining about the file system?
 
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