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Ed Self-Driving Cars: Pros, Cons, and Predictions

Evaluate Self-Driving Cars on a scale of 1-5 (1 = Terrible, 3 = Meh, 5 = Great)

  • 1

    Votes: 10 6.6%
  • 2

    Votes: 11 7.2%
  • 3

    Votes: 24 15.8%
  • 4

    Votes: 28 18.4%
  • 5

    Votes: 79 52.0%

  • Total voters
    152
  • Poll closed .
I don't know who's right in the "LIDAR or no LIDAR" argument, but accidents are going to happen with both human and autopilot driving and anyone who claims that even today's FSD is "perfectly safe" is delusional. Never mind 2019 technology.

The alarming thing about all that isn't that the accident happened, but Teslas's attempt to cover it up. And that any driver in 2019 was so blasé as to think he could scrabble for his phone on the floor while his car was moving.
It's not alarming, it's what humans do when they trust technology they don't understand sufficiently to know its limitations.

It has been my experience of working in technology for over 25 years that all businesses will to some extent lie and mislead the public, regulators and customers to sell their imperfect products. Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes were just an extreme example of what goes on day in, day out. The trick is to make sure your signature isn't on any of the incriminating paperwork when it blows up!
 
This isn't clear to me. If LIDAR and regular cameras are needed, they are needed.
Define "needed" in a way that Elon Musk would agree to reduce his profits, miss a product launch deadline, etc. Maybe if you catch him on a Special-K day he'd be more agreeable.

See this for the calculation of MTBF for multi-component systems.
 
Define "needed" in a way that Elon Musk would agree to reduce his profits, miss a product launch deadline, etc. Maybe if you catch him on a Special-K day he'd be more agreeable.

See this for the calculation of MTBF for multi-component systems.
Required to see in all light conditions.
 
Required to see in all light conditions.
"Humans only use vision to drive a car. Therefore I want a computer system that only has cameras to drive a car. <implied>If you can't do it your H1-B will not be renewed.</implied> Can you do it?"
 
"Humans only use vision to drive a car. Therefore I want a computer system that only has cameras to drive a car. <implied>If you can't do it your H1-B will not be renewed.</implied> Can you do it?"
Cameras are better and worse than human eyes. LIDAR fills in the gap.
 
Define "needed" in a way that Elon Musk would agree to reduce his profits, miss a product launch deadline, etc. Maybe if you catch him on a Special-K day he'd be more agreeable.

See this for the calculation of MTBF for multi-component systems.
No one said there would be math. :poop:
 
Yeah, I don't get this at all. The fact that LIDAR is expensive is because it hasn't been mass produced. There is no reason it's cost couldn't be dramatically made cheaper to manufacture.
Actually there are plenty of possible reasons, and the lack of economy of scale is only one of them.

As an example, clinical blood chemistry analyzers range in price from around $5,000 for a limited capability desktop unit to well over $200,000 for high throughput laboratory units. But surely with modern technology the cost could be reduced enough to make it affordable to consumers, right? Someone tried that. You may have heard of her - her name was Elizabeth Holmes. Having an incentive to make technology more affordable is only part of the battle. You have to take physics into account too. Theranos failed not because Elizabeth Holmes set out to defraud anyone, but because there's a limit to what can be even done even with today's cutting edge technology.

Waymo has been using LIDAR for 10 years and has yet to achieve the economy of scale required to make it affordable. They build their sensors in-house because there isn't anything suitable on the open market. The result is very slow development of a niche-use technology. Cameras OTOH have seen huge improvements over the years due to their wide range of applications in consumer equipment, particularly cell phones. Due to the large market and demand for higher resolution they are far more capable today than 10 years ago. Other industries are leveraging that technolgy for their own purposes. Drones for example not only use cameras but also miniature acclerometers and GPS units that were developed for cell phones. That's why you can buy a toy drone which is more capable than machines that cost thousands a few years ago.

Musk made a bold play with camera-only sensing, and many said it wouldn't work. Now some are changing their tune as Tesla is proving that it does work. The reason Musk is right and they were wrong is that he knew how to make it work. It's not the sensors, but the software. Tesla could put more cameras and/or other sensors on their vehicles to get more ranging data, but it wouldn't help because the computer wouldn't be able to analyze it. At one time they had RADAR, but stopped using it because the combination of RADAR and camera data just confused the computer.

Now Waymo is talking about adding generative AI to their software. They have developed an End-to-end Multimodal Model called EMMA to help with things like object detection and road graphs. However the image processing frame rate is low and doesn't incorporate data from RADAR or LiDAR sensors. Tesla started doing that years ago, which is why they are so far ahead of Waymo now. Tesla's FSD can be used anywhere, not just in a few geofenced areas which it has been explicitly trained for. FSD is a generalized solution that only needs camera data and therefore can do anything a human can, provided the 'brain' is smart enough.

Another factor affecting LIDAR which hasn't got much attention is the light pollution and interference that may occur when large numbers of vehicles are using it, including the potential for physical harm. Current LiDAR is running the maximum power it can without being dangerous, relying on the constantly changing angle to avoid frying eyeballs. However some people have found out to their cost that cell phone cameras can be destroyed by it. Laser beams don't diverge much with distance, so at several meters the spot is still small enough to burn sensitive things.

Once the general public starts to appreciate the danger of LiDAR you can bet there will be oppostion, and there should be. Just because the beam normally moves too fast to fry your eyeball doesn't mean it can't happen. Imagine if every new vehicle had it. On a busy road there would be literally millions of invisible laser pulses shooting out in all directions. People already fear 5G cell phone signals which are much less powerful and have no known health effects, whereas you can prove the potential for harm from LiDAR simply by pointing a cell phone at it. They have the potential to damage the cameras in other cars too, and perhaps even other LiDAR units. There is also concern about the effect on wildlife, particularly birds. Lasers are currently being used to scare birds away from crops, but what about areas they are ligitimately inhabiting?

Bottom line is cameras are a safe non-polluting passive technology, while LiDAR is inherently polluting and potentially damaging. Since roads are designed for humans, cameras should be enough. LiDAR is just a crutch to make up for a lack of image processing power.
 
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Actually there are plenty of possible reasons, and the lack of economy of scale is only one of them.

As an example, clinical blood chemistry analyzers range in price from around $5,000 for a limited capability desktop unit to well over $200,000 for high throughput laboratory units. But surely with modern technology the cost could be reduced enough to make it affordable to consumers, right? Someone tried that. You may have heard of her - her name was Elizabeth Holmes. Having an incentive to make technology more affordable is only part of the battle. You have to take physics into account too. Theranos failed not because Elizabeth Holmes set out to defraud anyone, but because there's a limit to what can be even done even with today's cutting edge technology.

Waymo has been using LIDAR for 10 years and has yet to achieve the economy of scale required to make it affordable. They build their sensors in-house because there isn't anything suitable on the open market. The result is very slow development of a niche-use technology. Cameras OTOH have seen huge improvements over the years due to their wide range of applications in consumer equipment, particularly cell phones. Due to the large market and demand for higher resolution they are far more capable today than 10 years ago. Other industries are leveraging that technolgy for their own purposes. Drones for example not only use cameras but also miniature acclerometers and GPS units that were developed for cell phones. That's why you can buy a toy drone which is more capable than machines that cost thousands a few years ago.
I'm sorry, this isn't true. LIDAR is substantially cheaper today. And it's not like WAYMO is giving the manufacturers huge orders so they can take advantage of scale.

Musk made a bold play with camera-only sensing, and many said it wouldn't work. Now some are changing their tune as Tesla is proving that it does work. The reason Musk is right and they were wrong is that he knew how to make it work. It's not the sensors, but the software. Tesla could put more cameras and/or other sensors on their vehicles to get more ranging data, but it wouldn't help because the computer wouldn't be able to analyze it. At one time they had RADAR, but stopped using it because the combination of RADAR and camera data just confused the computer.

Now Waymo is talking about adding generative AI to their software. They have developed an End-to-end Multimodal Model called EMMA to help with things like object detection and road graphs. However the image processing frame rate is low and doesn't incorporate data from RADAR or LiDAR sensors. Tesla started doing that years ago, which is why they are so far ahead of Waymo now. Tesla's FSD can be used anywhere, not just in a few geofenced areas which it has been explicitly trained for. FSD is a generalized solution that only needs camera data and therefore can do anything a human can, provided the 'brain' is smart enough.

Another factor affecting LIDAR which hasn't got much attention is the light pollution and interference that may occur when large numbers of vehicles are using it, including the potential for physical harm. Current LiDAR is running the maximum power it can without being dangerous, relying on the constantly changing angle to avoid frying eyeballs. However some people have found out to their cost that cell phone cameras can be destroyed by it. Laser beams don't diverge much with distance, so at several meters the spot is still small enough to burn sensitive things.

Once the general public starts to appreciate the danger of LiDAR you can bet there will be oppostion, and there should be. Just because the beam normally moves too fast to fry your eyeball doesn't mean it can't happen. Imagine if every new vehicle had it. On a busy road there would be literally millions of invisible laser pulses shooting out in all directions. People already fear 5G cell phone signals which are much less powerful and have no known health effects, whereas you can prove the potential for harm from LiDAR simply by pointing a cell phone at it. They have the potential to damage the cameras in other cars too, and perhaps even other LiDAR units. There is also concern about the effect on wildlife, particularly birds. Lasers are currently being used to scare birds away from crops, but what about areas they are ligitimately inhabiting?

Bottom line is cameras are a safe non-polluting passive technology, while LiDAR is inherently polluting and potentially damaging. Since roads are designed for humans, cameras should be enough. LiDAR is just a crutch to make up for a lack of image processing power.
Now what I don't know at the moment, since I had never read the issues you're presenting. Is LIDAR really a safety problem? Or is this a FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) tactic. I'll need to do some more research. But I am fully convinced the cost issue would be marginal if it was put into millions of cars.
 
The point of using different types of sensors is so that the software can perform sanity checks against the two independent sets of data. Without that the AI is free to hallucinate away and no one will know until something bad happens. The additional sensor doesn't have to be better or even comparable in performance to the main sensor, but just able to provide an estimate of what a sensible answer from the main sensor should be.
 
Actually there are plenty of possible reasons, and the lack of economy of scale is only one of them.

As an example, clinical blood chemistry analyzers range in price from around $5,000 for a limited capability desktop unit to well over $200,000 for high throughput laboratory units. But surely with modern technology the cost could be reduced enough to make it affordable to consumers, right? Someone tried that. You may have heard of her - her name was Elizabeth Holmes. Having an incentive to make technology more affordable is only part of the battle. You have to take physics into account too. Theranos failed not because Elizabeth Holmes set out to defraud anyone, but because there's a limit to what can be even done even with today's cutting edge technology.

Waymo has been using LIDAR for 10 years and has yet to achieve the economy of scale required to make it affordable. They build their sensors in-house because there isn't anything suitable on the open market. The result is very slow development of a niche-use technology. Cameras OTOH have seen huge improvements over the years due to their wide range of applications in consumer equipment, particularly cell phones. Due to the large market and demand for higher resolution they are far more capable today than 10 years ago. Other industries are leveraging that technolgy for their own purposes. Drones for example not only use cameras but also miniature acclerometers and GPS units that were developed for cell phones. That's why you can buy a toy drone which is more capable than machines that cost thousands a few years ago.

Musk made a bold play with camera-only sensing, and many said it wouldn't work. Now some are changing their tune as Tesla is proving that it does work. The reason Musk is right and they were wrong is that he knew how to make it work. It's not the sensors, but the software. Tesla could put more cameras and/or other sensors on their vehicles to get more ranging data, but it wouldn't help because the computer wouldn't be able to analyze it. At one time they had RADAR, but stopped using it because the combination of RADAR and camera data just confused the computer.

Now Waymo is talking about adding generative AI to their software. They have developed an End-to-end Multimodal Model called EMMA to help with things like object detection and road graphs. However the image processing frame rate is low and doesn't incorporate data from RADAR or LiDAR sensors. Tesla started doing that years ago, which is why they are so far ahead of Waymo now. Tesla's FSD can be used anywhere, not just in a few geofenced areas which it has been explicitly trained for. FSD is a generalized solution that only needs camera data and therefore can do anything a human can, provided the 'brain' is smart enough.

Another factor affecting LIDAR which hasn't got much attention is the light pollution and interference that may occur when large numbers of vehicles are using it, including the potential for physical harm. Current LiDAR is running the maximum power it can without being dangerous, relying on the constantly changing angle to avoid frying eyeballs. However some people have found out to their cost that cell phone cameras can be destroyed by it. Laser beams don't diverge much with distance, so at several meters the spot is still small enough to burn sensitive things.

Once the general public starts to appreciate the danger of LiDAR you can bet there will be oppostion, and there should be. Just because the beam normally moves too fast to fry your eyeball doesn't mean it can't happen. Imagine if every new vehicle had it. On a busy road there would be literally millions of invisible laser pulses shooting out in all directions. People already fear 5G cell phone signals which are much less powerful and have no known health effects, whereas you can prove the potential for harm from LiDAR simply by pointing a cell phone at it. They have the potential to damage the cameras in other cars too, and perhaps even other LiDAR units. There is also concern about the effect on wildlife, particularly birds. Lasers are currently being used to scare birds away from crops, but what about areas they are ligitimately inhabiting?

Bottom line is cameras are a safe non-polluting passive technology, while LiDAR is inherently polluting and potentially damaging. Since roads are designed for humans, cameras should be enough. LiDAR is just a crutch to make up for a lack of image processing power.
You're drunk if you think Tesla is ahead of Waymo when it comes to autonomous driving. Tesla is level 2, just like all the other driver assist systems, while Waymo is level 4.
 
Actually there are plenty of possible reasons, and the lack of economy of scale is only one of them.

Waymo has been using LIDAR for 10 years and has yet to achieve the economy of scale required to make it affordable. They build their sensors in-house because there isn't anything suitable on the open market. The result is very slow development of a niche-use technology. Cameras OTOH have seen huge improvements over the years due to their wide range of applications in consumer equipment, particularly cell phones. Due to the large market and demand for higher resolution they are far more capable today than 10 years ago. Other industries are leveraging that technolgy for their own purposes. Drones for example not only use cameras but also miniature acclerometers and GPS units that were developed for cell phones. That's why you can buy a toy drone which is more capable than machines that cost thousands a few years ago.
As I said before this isn't true. LIDAR's cost is a small fraction of what it was. I can buy LIDAR sensors on Amazon for as little as $99.

Geely Auto Group Vice President Li Chuanhai said earlier this year that the cost of a single automotive LiDAR unit in China has plunged from about 30,000 yuan ($4,200) to around 1,000 yuan ($140).

I see Rivian is planning putting them in their EVs.

https://eletric-vehicles.com/rivian...-lidar-in-future-models-as-sensor-costs-fall/
 
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The point of using different types of sensors is so that the software can perform sanity checks against the two independent sets of data. Without that the AI is free to hallucinate away and no one will know until something bad happens. The additional sensor doesn't have to be better or even comparable in performance to the main sensor, but just able to provide an estimate of what a sensible answer from the main sensor should be.
In any safety system- polling multiple sensors has always been the norm- and the times that rule has been ignored- 'bad things' (TM) happen....
Two sensors is 'ok-ish' three is better- so that 'voting out' faulty sensors can happen... ie if you have three sensors- all usually very close in value, and one suddenly says something completely different to the other two- mark that sensor as 'faulty- do not use its data' and ignore it...

Two sensors can be used- but it doesn't indicate which set of data is 'wrong'- only that 'somethings wrong'
That's why three is better- two of the three are similar in value, and one is waaay out- its obvious which data set should be ignored...
 

Looking at Waymo's safety data. They claim that it is already safer than human drivers (caveat: in the cities where they operate) and they have numbers to prove it.

 
In any safety system- polling multiple sensors has always been the norm- and the times that rule has been ignored- 'bad things' (TM) happen....
Two sensors is 'ok-ish' three is better- so that 'voting out' faulty sensors can happen... ie if you have three sensors- all usually very close in value, and one suddenly says something completely different to the other two- mark that sensor as 'faulty- do not use its data' and ignore it...

Two sensors can be used- but it doesn't indicate which set of data is 'wrong'- only that 'somethings wrong'
That's why three is better- two of the three are similar in value, and one is waaay out- its obvious which data set should be ignored...
In the avionics stuff I worked on many years ago there was a slightly different approach taken, where there was a main processor, a backup and a sanity check. If the main processor produced crazy results then the backup processor was switched over to. Presumably if the backup gave crazy results (or the sanity check itself had gone awry) then red lights started flashing in the cockpit!

I believe the system you described is typically used in space electronics, where the same circuit is repeated three times on the same IC and majority voting used. This mitigates the far more frequent single event upset (SEU) errors that occur in space because of the higher level of radiation the electronics is exposed to.

How to detect and handle errors in real time systems is probably the most difficult aspect of the design. In telecoms errors can usually be tolerated so long as they don't persist and the system can recover. In control systems where lumps of metal are moving at speed it usually requires secondary systems to apply brakes. I designed the control system for a prototype self-balancing wheelchair, where errors could mean the person in the wheelchair would be sent flying forwards or backwards. Because the wheelchair would be classed as a medical device the customer was looking at designing a mostly mechanical backup system that would deploy additional wheels to stabilise the wheelchair in the case of sensor or control system failures.

And we all know what happened when Boeing relied on a single sensor. That's what you get when companies are allowed to mark their own homework!
 
In the avionics stuff I worked on many years ago there was a slightly different approach taken, where there was a main processor, a backup and a sanity check. If the main processor produced crazy results then the backup processor was switched over to. Presumably if the backup gave crazy results (or the sanity check itself had gone awry) then red lights started flashing in the cockpit!

I believe the system you described is typically used in space electronics, where the same circuit is repeated three times on the same IC and majority voting used. This mitigates the far more frequent single event upset (SEU) errors that occur in space because of the higher level of radiation the electronics is exposed to.

How to detect and handle errors in real time systems is probably the most difficult aspect of the design. In telecoms errors can usually be tolerated so long as they don't persist and the system can recover. In control systems where lumps of metal are moving at speed it usually requires secondary systems to apply brakes. I designed the control system for a prototype self-balancing wheelchair, where errors could mean the person in the wheelchair would be sent flying forwards or backwards. Because the wheelchair would be classed as a medical device the customer was looking at designing a mostly mechanical backup system that would deploy additional wheels to stabilise the wheelchair in the case of sensor or control system failures.

And we all know what happened when Boeing relied on a single sensor. That's what you get when companies are allowed to mark their own homework!
I was working in the bulk fuel storage/distribution systems and they used the 3 sensor 'voting' system- mostly because of things like inertia in the pipelines etc could cause serious issues if pumps were just 'shut down' dead or valves closed too quickly- ramping up and down in speed took time- and relied heavily on known accurate pressure figures- a faulty sensor needed to not only be isolated, but you needed to know WHICH sensor was in error- hence the triple sensor/polling system being used- ruptured fuel lines spraying fuel in the tens of thousands of litres all over the ground tends to be frowned upon for some reason lol....
People don't think of large amounts of liquid as being dangerous, but even water can have a LOT of potential power involved in a pipeline (obviously fuel adds even more danger to the mix)- a large diameter pipeline can have the mass of thousands of tonnes of liquid moving down the pipeline and just 'turning off a valve' isn't as simple as many out of the industry would think...
 
Yes to all of that.

But is some service better than no service? Service from humans is expensive. In the last six years I've noticed that the bus stopping at the Park and Ride that runs only on weekdays and non-holidays has gone from 12 stops a day to 8 stops twice in the last 4 years.

Maybe deleting the driver could increase service to 14 times a day 7 days a week? I don't know which is more important. That is subjective.
But that's not what will happen though, not without radical changes to how government operates. In the world we live in, getting rid of the driver will not improve the frequency of the buses, it will result in the same s3rvice but either a) more p4ofits going to the company owners or b) even lower taxes on the rich.

We have enough wealth to have a proper public transport system, each bus staffed by driver and conductor, if governments were willing to act on the principle that taxes aren't something that only the poor should pay. If the tax system was built fairly we could do all this and more.

But, as I said, that's not going to happen in today's world.
 
But that's not what will happen though, not without radical changes to how government operates. In the world we live in, getting rid of the driver will not improve the frequency of the buses, it will result in the same s3rvice but either a) more p4ofits going to the company owners or b) even lower taxes on the rich.

We have enough wealth to have a proper public transport system, each bus staffed by driver and conductor, if governments were willing to act on the principle that taxes aren't something that only the poor should pay. If the tax system was built fairly we could do all this and more.

But, as I said, that's not going to happen in today's world.
We don't know what will happen. But I understand your pessimism.
 

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