seeing the light in skepticism

[Pragmatist]

Re: Re: Re: seeing the light in skepticism

Schroedinger's Skeptic. They are both right, wrong, burned and safe. For each action there is a possible outcome. The skeptic is prepared for the candle to stay upright, and so his observational consciousness remains with that probability. The psychic however, knocks the candle over with PK and continues his focus of observational consciousness on the flow and probable outcomes of that possibility. You are sharing a reality where both types of belief system are in competition for differing outcomes. Your consciousness will choose which is the required outcome and if your are skeptical, it will remain flowing along the lines of that pattern of expectancy and will not be aware of the outcome of the psychic. Of course, there will be an aspect of the psychic's consciousness who will choose to fail, for whatever reason, and they may decide to experience the failure. Likewise, the skeptic will burn in another reality if their consciousness needs this to happen, when the psychic knocks the candle over by PK.

Quantum theory shows that there are an infinite number of outcomes for any one event and that every possibility exists simultaneously. It is also showing that the mind can locate itself at will in any of these existences, although governed by our belief engines we tend to act predictably - which is why spoons do not currently melt in each and every paw and why 3 dimensional images and sound can be transmitted across the world. Our belief in math and physics has shown us that it is possible to transmute living actions into digital signals, whereas such a thought would be complete hokus pokus a mere 500 years ago.

We are at the point in the belief dichotomy where critical mass is being reached in respect of the memetic values which are socially programmed into our way of thinking.

Crowley was wrong in one key area: Believe what you Will, shall be the whole of the law.

Male bovine manure!

And there you have it folks, a prima facie demonstration of my magical powers. I utter the magic incantation and the woo materialises:

To reveal the true woo, just mention the "Q"

Pragmatist have heap big powerful magic!

 

[Interesting Ian]

Not that that's even relevant, but the placebo effect is entirely different - my belief that a placebo will work has no bearing upon how it will work for you.

Nonsense. If you're my doctor, then your belief it will work will influence my belief.

Anyway, Nex asked for any evidence for beliefs effecting reality. I have provided that evidence. Our beliefs actually initiate physical change in the world.

 

[Yaotl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: seeing the light in skepticism

Male bovine manure!

And there you have it folks, a prima facie demonstration of my magical powers. I utter the magic incantation and the woo materialises:

To reveal the true woo, just mention the "Q"

Pragmatist have heap big powerful magic!

You've converted me, I'm a believer in whatever it is you're preaching

 

[Yaotl]

Nonsense. If you're my doctor, then your belief it will work will influence my belief.

Anyway, Nex asked for any evidence for beliefs effecting reality. I have provided that evidence. Our beliefs actually initiate physical change in the world.

So if I have this little bottle of liquid that I say can remove rust from iron, then my belief makes this true even if it's just water? The placebo effect is just you believing it works, and that's only in conditions where that would have a bearing. No amount of belief is going to cure cancer just because some doctor is waving a pill around.

 

[Ashles]

Anyway, Nex asked for any evidence for beliefs effecting reality. I have provided that evidence. Our beliefs actually initiate physical change in the world.

No they don't Ian. You've really gone off on a stupid tangent with this one.
There is no doubt that certain attitudes can make you feel better - expectations of a result or sensation often yield that reslt or sensation when we are talking about physical sensations in a body.

But placebos don't heal bones or cure cancer, or make blind people see. These conditions are real physical conditions and are unaffected by placebos.

Perhaps a placebo might make you feel your broken leg hurt less, but it won't make it heal any differently.

If you think this is you providing evidence then you are rather sadly mistaken.

 

[monkboon]

Nonsense. If you're my doctor, then your belief it will work will influence my belief.

Again, that's not relevant. Your doctor knows it's a placebo, you don't. His belief isn't that the placebo will do wonders for you, rather his job is to convince you of that belief. But let's say that your doctor hasn't read his reference material, and he really believes it will work on you. Unless you are convinced, it's still not going to have any effect, so your doctor's belief is unimportant.

Besides that, the placebo effect is not belief affecting reality. It's belief affecting the perception of reality, which is undisputed as far as I know. I am unaware of any reliable evidence that a placebo has ever cured any physical ailment. I'll take the mountains of evidence that placebos have led to relief of subjective symptoms as given.

 

[Dr Adequate]

So, let's check off what just happened. Same ol' same ol'.

(1) De'Ville's Advocaat explains that there's lots of evidence for psi, and produces the standard patronising psych-101 explanation about how the "mind-set" of sceptics blah jabber wibble, you know the thing.

(2) We ask him for the evidence.

(3) He produces a link to a study which used a (definitely) bogus methodolgy on an (allegedly) bogus set of data.

(4) We point out that this is not good evidence for psi.

(5) He shelves the question of evidence and starts talking about how he's right 'cos of "quantum mechanics", a subject of which he obviously knows nothing...

(6) ... and arguing about whether the world really exists.

(7) The entire question of this "evidence" that my "mind-set" prevents me from seeing is quietly shelved.

Seeing this same charade acted out over and over again makes me more and more sceptical daily. If there were any good points to be made, surely the believers would make them. It seems there are none.

 

[Interesting Ian]

So if I have this little bottle of liquid that I say can remove rust from iron, then my belief makes this true even if it's just water? The placebo effect is just you believing it works, and that's only in conditions where that would have a bearing. No amount of belief is going to cure cancer just because some doctor is waving a pill around.

The same tired tactic time after time. The fact that my beliefs effect the world does not entail that my ability has unlimited powers.

Also I would be interested in you backing up your contention that ones mental state can have no bearing on the curing of cancer.

As William G Braud has said

there exists a relatively large literature of reports of experiments in which participants have attempted to influence a wide variety of remote cellular and other biological systems through direct intention. When my colleague Marilyn Schlitz and I surveyed this literature in 1985, we found reports of 149 such experiments, of which 79 experiments (53 percent) yielded significant evidence of direct mental influence effect. The living target systems for these investigations have included bacteria, yeast, fungi, mobile algae, plants, protozoa, larvae, insects, chicks, mice, rats, gerbils, cats, dogs, and dolphins, as well as cellular preparations (blood cells, neurons, cancer cells) and enzyme activities. In human "target persons," eye movements, muscular movements, electrodermal activity, plethysmographic activity, respiration, and brain rhythms have been affected through direct mental influence. Many of these experiments are reviewed in papers by Solfvin (1984) and by Benor (1991).

http://integral-inquiry.com/docs/649/intentions.doc

 

[c4ts]

For those of you who think belief can change reality, try this experiment:

Lock yourself out of the house (make sure nobody is inside). Stand outside the front door, close your eyes, and believe the door is open. Keep your eyes closed, it is important that you do not see the door. Continue to believe the door is open (without opening your eyes) until you are SURE of it, that you absolutely KNOW it is open. Keep imagining the door as wide open until you are sure it's real. Now, keeping your eyes closed, walk back inside your house through the open door. What happens?

 

[Dr Adequate]

I don't think anyone seriously wishes to argue that the mind doesn't affect the body. Otherwise, how am I typing? But the idea that my mind can directly affect anything outside my body remains speculation. The further idea that the laws of nature could be determined by popular belief is just... weird.

 

[Interesting Ian]

No they don't Ian. You've really gone off on a stupid tangent with this one.
There is no doubt that certain attitudes can make you feel better - expectations of a result or sensation often yield that reslt or sensation when we are talking about physical sensations in a body.

But placebos don't heal bones or cure cancer, or make blind people see. These conditions are real physical conditions and are unaffected by placebos.

Perhaps a placebo might make you feel your broken leg hurt less, but it won't make it heal any differently.

If you think this is you providing evidence then you are rather sadly mistaken.

If an ice cube is placed on a hypnotized person's skin, and she's told it is a hot coal, a blister appears. A patient overheard his Doctor tell another Doctor that he (the patient) has a galloping heart. The patient interpreted this as meaning that his heart is fine, where as quite the opposite was the case. Next time the patient goes to the doctor his heart is fine.

Oh I know, I know. These examples are not good enough. You want ones belief to be able to levitate objects, explode stars! etc LOL

Sorry, the contention was that belief cannot affect reality. This is flat out false.

 

[Ashles]

The fact that my beliefs effect the world does not entail that my ability has unlimited powers.

No Ian. I'm not sure whether you genuinely don't understand or you are just being deliberately stupid.

The example you have given is evidence that we have the ability to alter our physical sensations. Nothing more.
This is not an affect on anything more significant than our own perception of physical sensations.
Rubbing a knocked arm makes the pain subside. It doesn't mean that we didn't knock the arm or it won't still bruise.

Our beliefs affect nothing that would change anyone else's experience. If I believe your broken leg will hurt less, it won't have any effect.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Again, that's not relevant. Your doctor knows it's a placebo, you don't. His belief isn't that the placebo will do wonders for you, rather his job is to convince you of that belief. But let's say that your doctor hasn't read his reference material, and he really believes it will work on you. Unless you are convinced, it's still not going to have any effect, so your doctor's belief is unimportant.

Besides that, the placebo effect is not belief affecting reality. It's belief affecting the perception of reality, which is undisputed as far as I know. I am unaware of any reliable evidence that a placebo has ever cured any physical ailment. I'll take the mountains of evidence that placebos have led to relief of subjective symptoms as given.

Don't be absurd. Placebos are almost as effective as the real thing. And we all know that anxiety can have deleterious effects on the body.

 

[Yaotl]

Don't be absurd. Placebos are almost as effective as the real thing. And we all know that anxiety can have deleterious effects on the body.

Can I come live in your fantasy world? And who the hell is William Braud? I can't find much about him that isn't about that article.

 

[Ashles]

If an ice cube is placed on a hypnotized person's skin, and she's told it is a hot coal, a blister appears. A patient overheard his Doctor tell another Doctor that he (the patient) has a galloping heart. The patient interpreted this as meaning that his heart is fine, where as quite the opposite was the case. Next time the patient goes to the doctor his heart is fine.

I too have heard these anecdotes.

Is there anything to confirm they are real?

Edited to add: It is already accepted that what you are thinking can affect your body - relaxation and calmness will help to slow the heart, but we know the brain has influence over the body to a certain degree anyway so this isn't about 'belief affecting reality' merely standard accepted physiological responses to mood.

But I realise you are splitting hairs and redefining things to try and prove yourself right. As usual.
You know EXACTLY what we are refering to by beliefs affecting reality, and it's NOT "I believe I can pick up this pen and I then do so, so my belief affected reality" type of statement,which is where you are coming from.
We are talking about external events or those not under the direct influence of our mind, like heart rate, breathing, pain perception etc.

(I am sceptical about the ice cube story anyway, but if it did turn out to be true it wouldn't be inexplicable or outside the bounds of possibility. I just still would like to hear any evidence for it.)

 

[Dr Adequate]

If an ice cube is placed on a hypnotized person's skin, and she's told it is a hot coal, a blister appears. A patient overheard his Doctor tell another Doctor that he (the patient) has a galloping heart. The patient interpreted this as meaning that his heart is fine, where as quite the opposite was the case. Next time the patient goes to the doctor his heart is fine.

Oh I know, I know. These examples are not good enough. You want ones belief to be able to levitate objects, explode stars! etc LOL

Sorry, the contention was that belief cannot affect reality. This is flat out false.

WE AGREE THAT THE MIND CAN AFFECT THE BODY.

But it seems that my beliefs can't directly affect anything outside my body. Providing a counter-example would involve proving the existence of some psi effect. By the way, feel free to do so. In your own time.

 

[c4ts]

So what do you think, Ian? Can the placebo effect cure ebola or restore lost limbs?

 

[Ashles]

Don't be absurd. Placebos are almost as effective as the real thing.

Placebos are almost as effective as the real thing? Don't be absurd.

 

[De'Ville's Advocaat]

Consider that you are watching a movie, on DVD, and you pause. You are given the option to choose from a variety of 'next scenario'. You chose the one which you want. Eventually your selections arrive at the ending of your choice.

Quantum theory gives consciousness an infinite number of 'next scenario's and those choices are happening at an infinite speed, countless trillions every billionth of a nano-second, and each of those choices has an infinite number of outcomes, and so on.

Here you are reading this now, and everything we share has been so until this point. You may continue to choose to see no evidence, you may build straw structures in order to hide yourself from the evidence, but others are seeing this evidence you are excluding yourself from, and as that memetic virus spreads, the less 'in touch' you will find yourself with in reality. That will only be resolved for your consciousness when you accept a quantum shift in the democratic reality and allow your self to experience the alter-paradigm.

 

[KelvinG]

I'd say your hunch is right. The prim schoolmarm comments point to a Luci sock. Luci loves to play uptight & stuffy before melting down into a boatload of sailor's curses and insults.

Kind of a sock-puppet assembly line.

The more I read, the more I'm convinced. De'Ville's Advocaat is Lucianarchy.

The condescending, arrogant style is the same. The way he lists his "evidence" with references is the same.

It sure didn't take him long to come back and start singing the same old tune!