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I don't think whether it's real or not is the issue. I'm just saying the bigfoot legend wasn't born in 1950 in the PNW. THe legend existed way before then and there are about a hundred different names for the same legendary creature.

I think it not being real has a lot to do with it, because as I was saying, when you have a modern fabrication of a muddled legend, and are pushing it as fact, then you have to be able to point to the history books and say "look, here's Bigfoot in the 19th century..."

I don't doubt that a legend existed, but that legend has nothing remotely to do with the current myth of Bigfoot. I think the Bigfoot legend as we know it today is firmly rooted in the 1950s and beyond, as opposed to anything pre-1950.

I'd say most of the names for Bigfoot are likely, when investigated, describing something that contradicts today's idea of what a Bigfoot is. The problem is that so many legends and names are thrown about without anyone having actually checked them to see if they gel with today's Bigfoot. The Woodwose is one of those common mistakes, and basically describes a less romantic version of the Green Man of folklore, but when looked at through the lenses of a believer, this is an ancient depiction of a Bigfoot.

If you believe in Bigfoot, then European folklore is rife with accounts of potentially "historic Bigfoot accounts" that span many centuries well before the 19th or 20th. There's a whole host of tales that believers can hang their hats on, but in reality, they're nothing like Bigfoot in any way whatsoever.

The details don't seem to matter when making a case for a supposed history of a fictitious creature. The actual Asian accounts of "Yeti's" bare no resemblance to any Bigfoot, and were actually thought of as supernatural entities, which is why on ancient maps of Asia, you'll see a demon, as opposed to a hairy ape-man. The Westerner likely created the Yeti as we now know it.
 
Every culture has a boogeyman.

More to the point, every culture has some kind of giant within its legends. Giants are beyond even Biblical tales.

Giants are a huge part of the human imagination and have been for thousands and thousands of years. It goes back to mans inability to fathom how things like mountains came to be; must've been a mighty big fella who did that!

It's not too dissimilar from the "Ancient Alien" gang, they poke throughout history and say "ah ha! See? Man couldn't possibly do that, must've been aliens!"
 
I think when you're dealing with an archetype, like a hairy man, that any differences in the story are minor. Bigfoot is the same old legend re-branded for modern times.
 
I think when you're dealing with an archetype, like a hairy man, that any differences in the story are minor. Bigfoot is the same old legend re-branded for modern times.
Which legend would this be?

We've already had this discussion here - Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.

It is quite obvious from the discussions in that thread, that there are not any existing legends that Bigfoot was derived from.

The whole BF thing was invented from whole cloth.
 
Which legend would this be? The whole BF thing was invented from whole cloth.

It is a long con devised to beguile the gullible (and worse) for fun and profit. The only certainty in bigfootery is an endless supply of the credulous.
 
I think when you're dealing with an archetype, like a hairy man, that any differences in the story are minor. Bigfoot is the same old legend re-branded for modern times.

I have to disagree, as the variation is immense. It's this view of "minor differences" that allow people to make silly claims about Bigfoot being real.

When you genuinely look at "hairy man" stories, they're nothing akin to most modern Bigfoot stories.

This is why we have loonies trying to use Werewolf tales as proof for Bigfoot, and other such fraudulent nonsense.

Take for instance the Yeti, as I mentioned earlier, it had nothing to do with Bigfoot whatsoever, but now it's synonymous with it due to a lack of understanding and a desperate need to have Bigfoot be real.

If we overlook "minor differences," we overlook major flaws.
 
Which legend would this be?

The one I mentioned that was co-opted by my grandfather to prevent people from walking up on his still was the woolly booger. That was during the 1920's well before the word bigfoot was coined.


Native Americans aren't the only ones that have a myth or legend about hairy men. I wasn't specifically speaking to them unless you want to keep the discussion about North America.

It is quite obvious from the discussions in that thread, that there are not any existing legends that Bigfoot was derived from.

The whole BF thing was invented from whole cloth.

I disagree, the differences described are minimal at best. I think it's a universal archetype since hairy man legends are worldwide and stretch back since people started story telling.
 
I don't think whether it's real or not is the issue. I'm just saying the bigfoot legend wasn't born in 1950 in the PNW. THe legend existed way before then and there are about a hundred different names for the same legendary creature.

I don't recall any ancient native drawings of the most famous feature...

You'd think that coming across 20X7 inch human prints (or larger) fairly often would make such prints part of the fabric of life of ancient people. Even if you never ran across what created the prints...

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that giant foot prints that are basically just like mine means a giant man like me. Presumably these ancient people became adept at tracking and were used to looking for tracks in the soil. They'd have come across sasquatch tracks often and those tracks would have been a big deal to them.

Just like grizzly tracks and grizzly claws were a big deal.

Presumably sasquatch/bigfoot was even bigger back then and much more numerous.

It would have been the ultimate prize to hunt and kill a sasquatch and have souvenirs of your deed.

Yet we really don't see anything but vague legends that have to be ground down and fitted into the bigfoot meme.
 
I don't recall any ancient native drawings of the most famous feature...

You'd think that coming across 20X7 inch human prints (or larger) fairly often would make such prints part of the fabric of life of ancient people. Even if you never ran across what created the prints...

I imagine people who were primarily farmers and hunters would know what bear prints look like more so than a society after the industrial revolution.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that giant foot prints that are basically just like mine means a giant man like me. Presumably these ancient people became adept at tracking and were used to looking for tracks in the soil. They'd have come across sasquatch tracks often and those tracks would have been a big deal to them.

Just like grizzly tracks and grizzly claws were a big deal.

Exactly, they knew what they were looking at.

Presumably sasquatch/bigfoot was even bigger back then and much more numerous.

It would have been the ultimate prize to hunt and kill a sasquatch and have souvenirs of your deed.

Yet we really don't see anything but vague legends that have to be ground down and fitted into the bigfoot meme.

That's what makes a legend a legend.
 
The one I mentioned that was co-opted by my grandfather to prevent people from walking up on his still was the woolly booger. That was during the 1920's well before the word bigfoot was coined.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
When you first told this story the thread, "Bigfoot - Anybody Seen One?", you claimed that your father actually came face to face with a bigfoot,
"I can't rule out misidentification, but he was face to face with this thing, I don't think it was a hallucination.".
In that thread you were emphatic about the veracity of your father and grandfather's first-hand experiences with BF.

Now you are saying that your grandfather "co-opted" a story to scare people off his property?
That is a pretty massive back down from your insistence that he and his son actually came face to face with one, to now just being a story your grandfather invented.

Native Americans aren't the only ones that have a myth or legend about hairy men. I wasn't specifically speaking to them unless you want to keep the discussion about North America.
The subject is BF, which is an North American invention.
You can try to obfuscate the conversation by introducing irrelevant non-N.Am legends if you like - but they'll be ignored as being off topic.
I disagree, the differences described are minimal at best. I think it's a universal archetype since hairy man legends are worldwide and stretch back since people started story telling.
Obfuscation.
Tales of hairy mountain men or fairy stories about bogeymen,
which is what a Wooly Booger actually described as, has no connection to BF, other tenuous (and obvious) attempts by BF exponents to misrepresent such stories as "proof" of historical BF accounts and legends.

The thread on Native American legends is a very good example of such misrepresentations by proponents.
 
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Native Americans aren't the only ones that have a myth or legend about hairy men. I wasn't specifically speaking to them unless you want to keep the discussion about North America.



I disagree, the differences described are minimal at best. I think it's a universal archetype since hairy man legends are worldwide and stretch back since people started story telling.

The differences are not minimal, as I've gone to great length to explain in my earlier posts. The differences are absolutely what separates a "Bigfoot" from a "wild man." A wild man, as previously mentioned, spans everything from a description of a lower-class individual by the upper-class, something the Irish were depicted as being by the English, for instance, and a wild man was also a literal description of an "untamed" person, living beyond accepted society. Most European stories concerning wild men are generally embellished accounts of "uncouth savages." Embellishment is something people often overlook in old tales.

Take, for instance, the depictions of Jack the Ripper in the London press of the 19th century; he appeared as a phantom, a ghost, and a devil. These are clearly not things that people were serious about. Now, look at these supposed Australian, American, European, Asian "wild man" stories and ask yourself are they not more in line with shoddy newspaper sensation stories depicting people who are cast aside from accepted normality.

I can think of many examples where this is the case. Most of them appear in "Cryptozoology" books as supposed evidence of Bigfoot, especially the accounts concerning military personnel. Some soldiers find a wild man, hairy and dirty, he can't speak a word of their language, and he's subsequently imprisoned where he either dies in captivity after being "inspected" by the doctor, or escapes. These stories are all nonsense and many of them share literally the same details as I just described.

Wild man tales are nothing even remotely close to being similar to any Bigfoot tale. What people do is tweak those old tales to fit the modern idea of a Bigfoot.

Then you have basic tales of giants, usually half-clothed and again nothing at all like "ape-men," then you have things like Woodwoses, mythical forest beings that are absolutely nothing like Bigfoot.

In Europe, there was stories of men who were part animal, in France and Germany there were Werewolf stories, muddled with the reality of Berzerkers, who would wear the pelts of bears and wolves, spreading stories of "animal-men" murdering villagers. It goes on and on.

Like I said, when you believe in Bigfoot, you need to be able to point to its history in the world, and all of these totally unrelated pieces of fact, fiction, myth and legend serve as a fake history, tweaked to suit the needs of the believer.

Bigfoot as we know it, does not exist, therefore it has no actual history. It lends its history from the various histories of other legends.

Here's a common statement from believers: "But in Asia they've talked about Ape-men for centuries..." No, they have not. The Yeti was never an ape-man until we made it one. The Yeti was a demon, a spirit, and you need only look at the ancient maps of Asia to see it. Likely a combination between their own superstitions about spirits, and the reality of dangerous animals such as bears.

People even throw Native American tales in with Bigfoot lore, but when you actually look at those native tales, they describe nothing even remotely similar to a Bigfoot.

Do hairy man tales exist pre-1950? Yes.
Are they in any way connected to Bigfoot tales post-1950? Not under scrutiny.
 
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Bigfoot is not a hairy man.

Bigfoot is a Giant, Hairy, Ape-beast.

*It is elusive, but... IN YO FACE!!,
*It is rare, but... has the largest range of any mammal in North America,
*It can see planes, but... not blimps,
*It is bipedal for walking long distances, but... has a mid-tarsal break and no Achilles tendon so it can climb.
*It hucks rocks at people, but... never hits them (EDIT: This is an trait "BAD AIM" that is selected-for. If they actually hit any person, they would be instantly hunted to extinction, because they miss, there is no imminent threat from them.)
 
Bigfoot is not a hairy man.

Bigfoot is a Giant, Hairy, Ape-beast.

*It is elusive, but... IN YO FACE!!,
*It is rare, but... has the largest range of any mammal in North America,
*It can see planes, but... not blimps,
*It is bipedal for walking long distances, but... has a mid-tarsal break and no Achilles tendon so it can climb.
*It hucks rocks at people, but... never hits them (EDIT: This is an trait "BAD AIM" that is selected-for. If they actually hit any person, they would be instantly hunted to extinction, because they miss, there is no imminent threat from them.)

All that and so much more. Bigfoot is a combination of a thousand different unrelated tales, lol.

"Minimal differences" are what allow people to ignore things that should give them pause for thought, instead enabling them to suspend disbelief and practice true ignorance.
 
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
When you first told this story the thread, "Bigfoot - Anybody Seen One?", you claimed that your father actually came face to face with a bigfoot,
"I can't rule out misidentification, but he was face to face with this thing, I don't think it was a hallucination.".
In that thread you were emphatic about the veracity of your father and grandfather's first-hand experiences with BF.

Now you are saying that your grandfather "co-opted" a story to scare people off his property?
That is a pretty massive back down from your insistence that he and his son actually came face to face with one, to now just being a story your grandfather invented.

No, actually it isn't. Homelessness was rampant during the depression. My father was brought up on the story of the woolly booger that was in the area. Imagine a child running up on an unkempt man in a grape vineyard in a rural area. What do you think his mind is going to tell him that he's seeing? Only later when I reconnected with my Aunt Ada Mae and asked about the incident did she tell me that it was story concocted to keep people away from the still. I did post about that later on in that same thread.

The subject is BF, which is an North American invention.
You can try to obfuscate the conversation by introducing irrelevant non-N.Am legends if you like - but they'll be ignored as being off topic.Obfuscation.
Tales of hairy mountain men or fairy stories about bogeymen,
which is what a Wooly Booger actually described as, has no connection to BF, other tenuous (and obvious) attempts by BF exponents to misrepresent such stories as "proof" of historical BF accounts and legends.

What you call obfuscation is pointing out what I call cherry picking the data on your part.

The thread on Native American legends is a very good example of such misrepresentations by proponents.

I don't agree.
 
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All that and so much more. Bigfoot is a combination of a thousand different unrelated tales, lol.

"Minimal differences" are what allow people to ignore things that should give them pause for thought, instead enabling them to suspend disbelief and practice true ignorance.

I don't disagree with that, but casting bigfoot as a recent legend that originated in the 1950's isn't accurate.
 
I don't disagree with that, but casting bigfoot as a recent legend that originated in the 1950's isn't accurate.

But it isn't accurate to say that the modern notion of Bigfoot existed before the 1950s, though, that's my point.

Are there any notable accounts from before 1950 that have not been re-tweaked by believers since then, that are in line with the modern day Bigfoot in detail and description?

Giants are an ancient myth, one of the oldest. Hairy men are an almost ancient symbol of feral man. Neither are connected to Bigfoot as we know it. That's my point; if you want/need/believe Bigfoot to be real, then you need a history for it, and you can find that history in the unrelated tales of other legends. This is how myths are born, urban legends, folklore, etc.
 
I don't disagree with that, but casting bigfoot as a recent legend that originated in the 1950's isn't accurate.

Yes it is.

Bigfoot was co-opted from the Yeti stories.

They saw the expeditions to Nepal, the Shipton print etc... and transplanted them here, where there was ripe market for such a creature.
 

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