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Second Amendment

Tricky said:
What's wrong with this picture?
What's wrong is your implication that the stray bullet victim, store owner victim, etc. occurred w/ legally bought and used firearms.

Gangbangers and robbers aren't the typoical gun owners, and are forbidden from owning or using them.
 
WildCat said:

What's wrong is your implication that the stray bullet victim, store owner victim, etc. occurred w/ legally bought and used firearms.

Gangbangers and robbers aren't the typical gun owners, and are forbidden from owning or using them.
And you don't know if the bullet was fired by a "robber" or "gangbanger" either. It could have come from a legally bought firearm. It was a stray bullet. They don't come with return addresses. There are simply so many bullets flying around in our society that people get hit at random. That is not an indictment of who shot or whether it was legally owned or anything other than the fact that in America, guns are everywhere. When guns are everywhere, you have to expect a lot of people to get shot. In countries where guns aren't everywhere, not so many people get shot. This is not rocket science.

And by the way. Robbers and gangbangers are not forbidden from owning or using firearms unless they are caught using them illegally. A "legal gun owner" could just as easily be a robber as one who had previously been caught. Many gang members have no criminal record either.
 
Gangbang obvious has a different meaning in the US. Over here it means orgy/group sex.
 
severin said:
Gangbang obvious has a different meaning in the US. Over here it means orgy/group sex.

It means that here as well. There is an additional use of the word that relates to the act of being involved in street gang activity.
 
severin said:
I read somewhere that in the US, if you own a gun, you are more likely to shoot a member of your family or friend by accident than in intruder - can anyone substantiate this?

This may be the result of a study done by Arthur L. Kellerman, called Protection or Peril?: An Analysis of Firearm-Related Deaths in the Home (314 New Eng. J. Med. 1557-60, 1986). The study claimed that guns in the home are 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a criminal, however the methodology employed in the study was far from sound. As noted by author/advocate Guy Smith in his rebuttal to Kellerman's claims:

Of the 43 deaths reported in this flawed study, 37 (86%) were suicides. Other deaths involved criminal activity between the family members (drug deals gone bad). Of the remaining deaths, the deceased family members include felons, drug dealers, violent spouses committing assault, and other criminal activities. In his critique of this “study”, Gary Kleck notes that the estimation of gun ownership rates were “inaccurate”, and that the total population came from a non-random selection of only two cities.

Others have, similarly, refuted Kellerman's claims.

I would be most curious to see objective data which would substantiate what you've read (and also to know precisely the source you were reading). If it were dependent upon this study in particular, there is insufficient or flawed evidence presented to substantiate the claim.

According to the Centers for Disease Control, there were, nationwide, a total of 824 accidental firearms-related deaths in 1999, and 776 in 2000 ('00 = most recent data available). Unfortunately, the URL I provided does not break those numbers down any further, so it's not possible to isolate figures for accidental deaths of family members or bystanders versus those self-inflicted (accidentally, as suicide is categorized separately as being intentional), let alone the location of the incidents and whether or not they occurred in the home.

Researchers like John Lott and Gary Kleck have authored studies claiming millions of defensive gun uses each year (IIRC, Kleck claims 2.5 million DGUs, for example, and Lott 2.1 million), and critics have pointed out fatal flaws in their respective methodologies, with which I mostly agree; I'm skeptical of the extremely high numbers. Government estimates from the National Crime Victimization Survey suggest a much lower number of defensive gun uses annually, roughly 100,000 each year -- but even at that it's still a survey, not 100% accurate.

What I would like to see is an objective comparison of empirical data on this matter, rather than politically-motivated rhetoric or "studies" skewed to achieve a desired result -- which appear all too commonly on both sides of the argument. I also wish I were capable of expanding upon what I've presented above. I'm no statistician, and do not have access to the sort of data I'd like in order to perform a comparison between defensive gun usage and its result and injuries/deaths which occur in the home versus successful deterrent of an attacker (whether resulting in discharge of the firearm or not). I personally find it difficult to believe that a firearm in the home is more dangerous to its owner(s) or other members of the household than an unwanted intruder. Then again, I'm a responsible, experienced firearms owner, and realize there is certainly no shortage of Darwin Award candidates in this country.
 
severin---It means that the Constitution is outdated, and needs to be rewritten! That clause about passing peace pipes only to the right, has to go.:D
 
Wolverine said:
I personally find it difficult to believe that a firearm in the home is more dangerous to its owner(s) or other members of the household than an unwanted intruder.
Excellent post, Wolverine. It is gratifying to see gun owners speak with such impartial honesty.

Let me suggest something as relating to the section above (totally without supporting evidence). It is almost certainly true that on a day that an intruder comes in a gun owners home, the firearm is much more dangerous to the intruder than the home owner. However, since the number of days when an intruder doesn't enter the home are vastly greater than the number of days when one does, the smaller odds of injuring a family member win out in absolute numbers by virtue of being in effect more often.

It's sort of like the old saying "75% of all accidents happen withing ten miles of home". Sure, that is certainly true, but considering that a very high percentage of driving happens in that radius, it does not really say that driving near home is more dangerous, just that more accidents happen in the areas where you are more likely to drive. Similarly, more gun accidents happen to family members because they are there all the time.
 
The pro-gun side often say that most criminals are using stolen or unregistered guns. Where are they getting them?

My proposal: If a crime is committed with a gun, the legal owner should be tried as an accomplice. If you own a gun, you have a responsibility to make secure it properly when you are not using it. This goes for gun manufacturers and dealers as well.
 
Evolver said:
The pro-gun side often say that most criminals are using stolen or unregistered guns. Where are they getting them?

My proposal: If a crime is committed with a gun, the legal owner should be tried as an accomplice. If you own a gun, you have a responsibility to make secure it properly when you are not using it. This goes for gun manufacturers and dealers as well.
Although I agree with you emotionally, logically and legally I cannot go for this. Just like I disagree with laws that allow parents to be prosecuted when their kids download music from the internet, I don't believe that legal gun owners can be held liable for what might happen to their guns after they are stolen. I want to go for a solution that makes it harder for people (especially careless ones) to get guns, thereby slowly reducing the number of guns in circulation. Perhaps a person who wishes to buy a gun must show the disposition of every gun he has owned in the past. People who have had guns stolen would have to jump through multiple hoops, like showing the security features they have adopted, before they could replace them. This is a very long term solution and is fraught with pitfalls, but I feel it is the best way to attack the problem without punishing those who currently own guns legally.
 
Tricky said:

Although I agree with you emotionally, logically and legally I cannot go for this. Just like I disagree with laws that allow parents to be prosecuted when their kids download music from the internet, I don't believe that legal gun owners can be held liable for what might happen to their guns after they are stolen. I want to go for a solution that makes it harder for people (especially careless ones) to get guns, thereby slowly reducing the number of guns in circulation. this is a very long term solution and is fraught with pitfalls, but I feel it is the best way to attack the problem without punishing those who currently own guns legally.

Owning a gun should come with more responsibilities than owning say, a toaster. My solution may be a bit draconian, but damn, I know a guy who routinely keeps his pistol in his gym bag, which I've seen open and unattended in his workplace, where alot of employees seem to come and go daily. If his gun were stolen and used in a murder, I don't think this bonehead would be blameless.

And again, if someone wants to own a gun, that's fine with me. But they must do everything they can to keep it out of the wrong hands.
 
Evolver said:

If his gun were stolen and used in a murder, I don't think this bonehead would be blameless.

how moronic. would he or his gun have caused the muder? of course not. the person who actually pulled the trigger caused the murder. if he would be charged with a crime, it would be for an unsecured weapon, which, in the US at least, is not a crime to the best of my knowledge. if comeone purchases a handgun legally and uses it in a crime, should the gun store owner be culpable? should a car owner who's car is stolen and said vehicle is used in a fatal hit and run be culpable?
 
EdipisReks said:


how moronic. would he or his gun have caused the muder? of course not. the person who actually pulled the trigger caused the murder. if he would be charged with a crime, it would be for an unsecured weapon, which, in the US at least, is not a crime to the best of my knowledge. if comeone purchases a handgun legally and uses it in a crime, should the gun store owner be culpable? should a car owner who's car is stolen and said vehicle is used in a fatal hit and run be culpable?

If you cannot secure your gun, you are not responsible enough to own one.
And I said they should be charged as an accomplice, notthe actual murderer. Then, maybe, the gun owners might take their responsibility seriously.
When a gun has other uses than shooting things, like say, driving to work on it, then perhaps your textbook NRA stooge (sorry, Shemp) argument may have relevance.
 
Evolver said:


If you cannot secure your gun, you are not responsible enough to own one.
And I said they should be charged as an accomplice, notthe actual murderer. Then, maybe, the gun owners might take their responsibility seriously.
When a gun has other uses than shooting things, like say, driving to work on it, then perhaps your textbook NRA stooge (sorry, Shemp) argument may have relevance.

textbook NRA stooge? i can throw that around, too. why don't you go kill some jews, Hitler? make sure you disarm them, first. your argument would have been reasonable until you threw in the ad-hom.
 
EdipisReks said:


textbook NRA stooge? i can throw that around, too. why don't you go kill some jews, Hitler? make sure you disarm them, first. your argument would have been reasonable until you threw in the ad-hom.

I believe you threw in the car=gun/apple=orange arguement. This is what the NRA teaches it's minions to spout.
Ad-hom, how about "How moronic."
Pot. Meet kettle. It's black.
 
Ok, let's try again:
NRA slogan: "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers."
If there are so many stolen guns out there, why are so many NRA members still warm and alive?
 
Before you can drive a car, you have to do a driving course and a test. Maybe, people who want to have guns should be required by law to do a course in responsible gun ownership. It wouldn't stop illegal gun use but it might stop accidents. Surely any sane adult would not object to waiting a while before getting a gun if it meant greater safety for everyone. And background checks should be kept forever.
 
The death penaltyreally works as a deterrent, doesn't it, that's why you have so little crime in the US. But let's no go there, that's a whole other can o' worms.
 

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