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Scriptural literacy

The scholarly consensus is that a wide variety of codeces, not to mention oral traditions, were circulating by the time the first gospel was written.

Perhaps Mark was the first, perhaps not. But it's the earliest we know about.

Mark's mission does not appear to have been to generate an entirely new narrative, but rather -- like the redactors of Genesis, Exodus, etc. -- to give shape to the fragments then in circulation and forge a narrative from them.

By the time of Mark's writing, it's very likely that a justifying theology would have already arisen to explain Jesus' crucifixion and the delay of the Day of the Lord. In fact, we would expect that to happen in fairly short order, and we would expect it to be linked to re-interpretation of Hebrew scripture.

Of course, there's always the possibility that, like Deuteronomy, Mark's gospel is simply invented out of whole cloth, that it uses the existing tradition (young as it would have been) merely as a jumping-off point to promulgate an entirely new theology, and does so by inventing a good deal of original material.

That's possible.

But personally, I find it less likely. Can't prove I'm right, tho... not by a long shot.


I don't suppose that Mark's gospel is invented wholly of new cloth nor that it sought to create an entirely new theology. What I suggest is that, in addition to weaving together existing stories, the author invented some new tales for theological purposes -- in other words, employing literary license to further his point and demonstrate dramatically that Jesus and his teachings were hidden to all, and that he was actually the Messiah because he suffered and died. No one knew this, and he masks knowledge of Jesus within these metaphors, like the miracle of the loaves and Jesus walking on water, later to be revealed in the transfiguration. The story up until the transfiguration (or the blind man beginning to see in stages, which precedes the transfiguration by only a few verses) is all about how Jesus has authority but the disciples don't know who Jesus is (as the reader may not); after the transfiguration he proclaims his message of the coming kingdom of God.

I think it likely that other of the gospel writers also invented stories for theological purposes -- like the infancy stories in Matthew to demonstrate that Jesus is the new Moses, bringing the new law; and the marriage at Cana in John's gospel. Heck, we know that folks continued to invent stories about Jesus long afterward -- that's why we have the other gospels that were rejected. As you mentioned, there is a clear addition to Mark's gospel. And there is the story of the adulterous woman in John's gospel that probably dates from sixth century (IIRC).

I understand your reluctance, but I wanted the point to be clear.
 
I don't suppose that Mark's gospel is invented wholly of new cloth nor that it sought to create an entirely new theology. What I suggest is that, in addition to weaving together existing stories, the author invented some new tales for theological purposes -- in other words, employing literary license to further his point and demonstrate dramatically that Jesus and his teachings were hidden to all, and that he was actually the Messiah because he suffered and died. No one knew this, and he masks knowledge of Jesus within these metaphors, like the miracle of the loaves and Jesus walking on water, later to be revealed in the transfiguration. The story up until the transfiguration (or the blind man beginning to see in stages, which precedes the transfiguration by only a few verses) is all about how Jesus has authority but the disciples don't know who Jesus is (as the reader may not); after the transfiguration he proclaims his message of the coming kingdom of God.

I think it likely that other of the gospel writers also invented stories for theological purposes -- like the infancy stories in Matthew to demonstrate that Jesus is the new Moses, bringing the new law; and the marriage at Cana in John's gospel. Heck, we know that folks continued to invent stories about Jesus long afterward -- that's why we have the other gospels that were rejected. As you mentioned, there is a clear addition to Mark's gospel. And there is the story of the adulterous woman in John's gospel that probably dates from sixth century (IIRC).

I understand your reluctance, but I wanted the point to be clear.

Oh, I get that. But I guess I'm trying to agree with you and disagree at the same time. ;)

It's certainly possible that they included original material in their gospels -- that is to say, new stories, not just new shadings and nuances to existing stories and additional commentary.

I don't disagree.

It will probably be a couple of days before I can drill down to the examples you mention because my plate's pretty full at the moment.

Of course, short of discovering very early original documents (say, ca. 50 CE or so) it's probably impossible to answer the question definitively in most cases.

But when asking about a story, parable, miracle, saying, or genealogy, "Was this new, was it original with this gospel?", I tend to be rather conservative and assume that it likely was not when dealing with the synoptics, unless I have reason to believe otherwise.

However, as you say, all of the material came from somewhere, obviously, and we have more than one example of later additions to the gospels. (Of course, we then have to ask if those were original material, or if they also represented later traditions that had already sprung up and were in circulation.)

I'll dig more deeply into the specific case you cite above when I have enough time to get my teeth into it.

Cheers.
 
Thanks, that would be great, and I do appreciate the attention you've already spared, since I know the idea isn't really provable either way -- it's just something that struck me while reading the accounts.
 
Something just dawned on me, and troubles me now. If Mark were written somewhere between 60 and 71 C.E., why would the author of that text have Jesus tell his followers that some of them would still be alive when the Son of Man returned in glory. The disciples must have been in their 30s or so at the time of the initial preaching, and if this text were written 30 years (at minimum) afterwards, would the author really expect that some of them were still alive? Sure, it's possible, but what are the chances? Why put those words in Jesus' mouth?
 
Something just dawned on me, and troubles me now. If Mark were written somewhere between 60 and 71 C.E., why would the author of that text have Jesus tell his followers that some of them would still be alive when the Son of Man returned in glory. The disciples must have been in their 30s or so at the time of the initial preaching, and if this text were written 30 years (at minimum) afterwards, would the author really expect that some of them were still alive? Sure, it's possible, but what are the chances? Why put those words in Jesus' mouth?

Ooh, now that's a good question! I'm hoping to have some time to dive back into this thread tonight. But first, I have a few miles of bike trails to ride. Maybe I'll give it some pondering then.
 
Something just dawned on me, and troubles me now. If Mark were written somewhere between 60 and 71 C.E., why would the author of that text have Jesus tell his followers that some of them would still be alive when the Son of Man returned in glory. The disciples must have been in their 30s or so at the time of the initial preaching, and if this text were written 30 years (at minimum) afterwards, would the author really expect that some of them were still alive? Sure, it's possible, but what are the chances? Why put those words in Jesus' mouth?

Well, I think we have to consider an "argument from embarrassment" here. If Mark includes such a risky statement, chances are, it had already become cemented in the iconography of the Jesus movement, so that it cannot be omitted.

This may be because the rabbi Jesus actually said it, or because it arose as an iconic phrase very soon after his crucifixion as the movement retrenched. Robert Cialdini's research on apocalyptic sects provides some persuasive support for the latter possibility.

I don't think there's any way to choose between the two, if an AfE hypothesis is entertained. And even if other hypotheses are put forward, the AfE has to be among the contenders.

(For those who haven't heard of it, the AfE is the theory that problematic scripture is likely to be accurate because it is unlikely that it would have been invented. For example, it is likely that Buddha did die from eating rancid almsfood because it is difficult to explain why his followers would invent such a tale, and it is likely that Jesus was crucified because if a method of his death were to be invented by his followers, it would not likely have been that one.)

Certainly, the meaning of this statement gets metaphorical treatment in the NT -- see 2nd Peter, most famously -- but again, there's no reason to introduce it in favor of language that does not require such explanations if it is not true to the actual teachings of the rabbi Jesus, and even central to them, or to the core beliefs of the early Jesus movement very shortly after his death.
 
Yeah, I guess it does give more credence to the idea of Jesus as an Apocalypticist -- as if we needed more evidence. Do you think it might also be that the author of Mark did not know when Jesus lived and died precisely?
 
One common thread, it appears, in apocalyptic writing, is to have the main character look to the future, but for the author and the reader, part of what is predicted has already happened. I would think that the author of Mark, supposedly an adult convert to Christianity, would have been writing for an audience that knew of the Jerusalem Temple destruction in 70 C.E., but who would not be acquainted with any eyewitnesses of Jesus, but who probably believed that some could still be alive. The author then makes reference to Daniel in Mark 13:14 :

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"

Going back to Daniel, you find this reference to "abomination":

" Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." (Daniel 12:5-11)

Daniel's "abomination" is referring to Antiochus setting up the altar to Zeus in the Jerusalem Temple around 167 B.C.E., but what if the author of Mark thought Daniel was predicting Mark's present time?

Going over the works of The Jewish War by Josephus, he mentions the Romans laying seige to the city and temple in 70 C.E., regular offerings in the temple ceased, the temple was burnt, and Roman sacrifices were made within (he also mentions Jesus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who went crazy and was killed during the seige....Jesus, the son of Ananus :D). Josephus also mentions messianic pretenders, one being Menahem and Simon bar Giora both meeting their end a little before or right around 70 C.E. This would fit Mark's Jesus saying these words:

"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."(Mark 13:19-23)

And if the author of Mark was writing shortly after the Temple being destroyed in 70 C.E., and he took Daniel's time frame...

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." (Daniel 12:5-11)

...then the author could be figuring that in about 3 1/2 years Jesus would return. So if the book was written/compiled around 70-71 C.E., the author would be predicting Jesus returning around 73-74 C.E..

Just like the times of Daniel, if people were being prosecuted for their religious beliefs (But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.(Mark 13:9)), apocalyptic hopes would flourish, and the author would have a prophet foretell a distant future which the reader would know as the recent past. If read during those times, it would bring great joy to think the Son of Man would be returning soon......


 
That makes a lot of sense. I suppose, thinking about it, that all the author of Mark needed was the possibility of someone surviving to his time and slightly beyond (especially since he was probably writing from somewhere in Greece or Italy, possibly Asia Minor, very unlikely Palestine, where he would not be sure of survivors or not). And since most apocalypticists expect the end very soon..........

And thanks for the explanation of the abomination. I assumed that it probably had something to do with the Roman destruction of the temple, but with the allusion to Antiochus that makes more sense.
 
As I was riding today (I guess bike rides are bad for religious orthodoxy) I happened on a few other thoughts.

If the author of Mark really thought that the end was coming in a very short period of time -- like 3 1/2 years -- why bother writing anything down? Writing is meant to last, why not rely on word of mouth for such a message, especially since word of mouth can move much more quickly and makes more sense in a world before printing?

I see sense in using/creating the Transfiguration in Mark -- the whole text concerns Jesus being completely misunderstood and it occurs after Peter declares that he (Jesus) is the Messiah. So, that makes sense from a literary perspective. But why was the Transfiguration included in Matthew and Luke where it simply seems superfluous? John didn't include it.

If we have a strong written tradition preceding the gospels that we inherited, why is John so very different from the others? I mean, John's gospel bears the slightest resemblance to the others and contradicts sometimes directly (the day of Jesus' death) and sometimes indirectly (timing of the cleansing of the Temple, the length of the ministry, etc.) the other accounts.
 
I'm going to be away from a computer for about 4 -5 days. Great questions! I look forward to what Piggy and others have to say......


I'm also going to try and get through Misquoting Jesus during this time, so hopefully I'll have more to bring to the conversation.
 
As I was riding today (I guess bike rides are bad for religious orthodoxy) I happened on a few other thoughts.

Hi, Ichy. I still plan to get to your larger question, but it's been a very busy time for me, so I probably won't post on that til tomorrow.

If the author of Mark really thought that the end was coming in a very short period of time -- like 3 1/2 years -- why bother writing anything down? Writing is meant to last, why not rely on word of mouth for such a message, especially since word of mouth can move much more quickly and makes more sense in a world before printing?

See, now you're getting to some of the arguments which speak directly to Mark's intent and methods.

It's questions like these which suggest rather strongly that Mark's primary purpose was to establish a narrative which included the core orthodoxy of his community (or communities), rather than sculpting a new theology.

It's hard to make sense of the totality of Mark if his intent is to produce an entirely coherent original theology out of the scraps. He just doesn't make the choices we'd expect if that were his goal.

So it's more likely that his criteria had more to do with (1) perceived orthodoxy at that time and place, and (2) fit within the narrative.

The fact that he bothers to write at all is, as you point out, an indication that a re-imagining of the words of Jesus -- a more metaphorical re-interpretation, such as that in 2nd Peter -- was in wide circulation by that time, and in fact had likely been well established.

I see sense in using/creating the Transfiguration in Mark -- the whole text concerns Jesus being completely misunderstood and it occurs after Peter declares that he (Jesus) is the Messiah. So, that makes sense from a literary perspective. But why was the Transfiguration included in Matthew and Luke where it simply seems superfluous? John didn't include it.

It was included because it was central to their schools of thought.

In fact, because the Transfiguration may be seen as not fitting well with the narrative flow of Matthew and Luke, its inclusion strongly suggests that it was so central to their communties of belief that it simply could not be omitted.

For them, the conception of Jesus as a new Moses and a new Elijah -- the founder of the nation of Israel and the renewer of the nation of Israel -- was indispensible.

John, writing farther outside the Jewish community and tradition, and perhaps later in time after the destruction of the Temple, is much less connected with a sense of fulfillment of Hebrew prophecy. From his omission of the Transfiguration -- as well as his rather generic treatment of "the Jews" as something other than the Jesus movement -- we can conclude that his community were primarily concerned with a Pauline focus on personal salvation through faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In fact, for John, this is something of an ahistorical event, a spiritual event injected into human time, through which we connect with the divine. It hardly seems to matter that God chose to perform that event when and where he did. If God had decided to make the Word flesh somewhere in Greece, for example, that would have done just as well.

If we have a strong written tradition preceding the gospels that we inherited, why is John so very different from the others? I mean, John's gospel bears the slightest resemblance to the others and contradicts sometimes directly (the day of Jesus' death) and sometimes indirectly (timing of the cleansing of the Temple, the length of the ministry, etc.) the other accounts.

Well, after the destruction of the 2nd Temple, which effectively marked the end of Judaism as it was practiced in Jesus' day -- and, for that matter, the legalism and practices and political conflict he so vehemently opposed -- much of the justification for the original Jesus movement simply vanished.

Their theology had to be reinvented.

And as Xianity was transplanted to other communities, all of those references lost their immediate significance, and they were simplified, re-interpreted as metaphor, or seen as symbols of larger truths applicable to the communities of those places and times.

After the destruction of the Temple, and outside of the Jewish culture, there is simply no longer anyone to restrain the narrative, so it begins to grow in unanticipated directions.

What we see in John is a narrative composed of later, post-Temple, extra-Jewish traditions.

ETA: For the audience of Matthew, the loss of the Temple would have been seen as a cataclysm, and apocalyptic expactations would have been high. For Luke's audience, it would likely have been viewed more as a sign of the fulfillment of days. Mark's account may have been written before the destruction of the Temple. For John's audience, it appears to have been much more distant, much less central.
 
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Another interesting random passage.

Mark 6:1-6

1Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. 2When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.

"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! 3Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

4Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith.

Ok, why did this tradition get established?

Most likely, it arose to explain an actual difficulty within the early Jesus movement in Galilee.

Just think of it. Reports of astounding miracles attributed to the rabbi Jesus come back to the place where people actually knew him, and they say, "Wait a minute... we knew Jesus, and he never raised the dead or walked on water or produced baskets of food from table scraps around here!"

So this has to be explained.

This is a deft explanation which aligns Jesus with prophecy -- re-interpreting scripture about prophets being rejected by Israel -- explains why no one who actually knew him well saw him do any of this stuff, and reinforces the notion that we have to have faith in order for miracles to occur in our lives. (The locals didn't have faith in Jesus, and thought him to be just the carpenter's son, so they got no miracles.)
 
Another interesting random passage.

Mark 6:1-6



Ok, why did this tradition get established?

Most likely, it arose to explain an actual difficulty within the early Jesus movement in Galilee.

Just think of it. Reports of astounding miracles attributed to the rabbi Jesus come back to the place where people actually knew him, and they say, "Wait a minute... we knew Jesus, and he never raised the dead or walked on water or produced baskets of food from table scraps around here!"

So this has to be explained.

This is a deft explanation which aligns Jesus with prophecy -- re-interpreting scripture about prophets being rejected by Israel -- explains why no one who actually knew him well saw him do any of this stuff, and reinforces the notion that we have to have faith in order for miracles to occur in our lives. (The locals didn't have faith in Jesus, and thought him to be just the carpenter's son, so they got no miracles.)


It also fits perfectly with the aims of the author of Mark, as did the bit from the 3rd (IIRC) chapter when his family is said not to understand who is he is what he is doing, in proposing Jesus as the Messiah that no one anticipated and no one understood as the Messiah. I think this fits perfectly with the literary aims of the author of Mark and probably requires no further explanation.

I would ask the question, is this an established tradition or a creation of the author of Mark? I know we must make significant assumptions discussing this material, but what if many of these traditions actually originate with Mark?
 
I would ask the question, is this an established tradition or a creation of the author of Mark? I know we must make significant assumptions discussing this material, but what if many of these traditions actually originate with Mark?

Look at the big picture and ask yourself, "If Mark had a completely free hand and were intending to generate an original theology, would he have written this?", and I think you'll be obliged to answer "No".

The explanation that best fits the entirety of the evidence is that Mark's purpose was to compose a narrative out of existing traditions that were considered scriptural at the time.
 
See, now you're getting to some of the arguments which speak directly to Mark's intent and methods.

It's questions like these which suggest rather strongly that Mark's primary purpose was to establish a narrative which included the core orthodoxy of his community (or communities), rather than sculpting a new theology.


But I don't doubt for a second that Mark was part and particle of the orthodox tradition. What if Mark largely created the orthodox position?


It's hard to make sense of the totality of Mark if his intent is to produce an entirely coherent original theology out of the scraps. He just doesn't make the choices we'd expect if that were his goal.


I never argued that he did. In fact, I argued against such a position with Malachi51. One must keep in mind, however, Mark's thesis -- that Jesus was the Messiah who no one expected, so much of the argument of him making choices that we would not expect go out the window under that thesis.


So it's more likely that his criteria had more to do with (1) perceived orthodoxy at that time and place, and (2) fit within the narrative.

The fact that he bothers to write at all is, as you point out, an indication that a re-imagining of the words of Jesus -- a more metaphorical re-interpretation, such as that in 2nd Peter -- was in wide circulation by that time, and in fact had likely been well established.


I'm not entirely certain of that. In fact, I'm not certain that the very idea of an orthodoxy at the time that Mark wrote his gospel makes sense. Sure, it makes perfect sense in the the 4th century, but in the 1st? I even toy with the idea that what was thought prior to the destruction of the Temple had to be re-conceived after it's destruction, hence the whole idea of who and what Jesus was might have been reconceived after the Temple destruction. Now, I think that Mark was composed after the Temple came down. I even think it makes sense of converts to look to Daniel for explanations of what this all meant -- and this might explain why the author of Mark included clear references to Daniel in his work.

I don't propose that he created a new theology, but I am concerned a bit about why he wrote what he did. I think an easy explanation would be that humans do what humans do -- and literary creativity is one of those things.

If we really want to look at this, the only writings that we have from the Christians prior to the Temple coming down were from Paul. Paul's view on who and what Jesus was seem at odds with the conception we get in Mark, but not entirely. Paul laid emphasis on Jesus' death and resurrection as the key points. It could even be that Mark was composed within a Pauline community to show that Jesus simply wasn't what people thought initially. When Bart Ehrman has constructed what he can of Paul's thought he creates a post-hoc sort of explanation -- Jesus was killed on a tree, so he must have been guilty of something. But I know that he was resurrected because I saw him on the road to Damascus, so he must have been the beloved of God. If he is the beloved of God then he must not have done anything wrong himself, so he must have taken on someone else's sins to account for the fact that he was killed on a tree (crucified). He must have, therefore, assumed the sins of the world, and this fits perfectly with my pre-existing belief in apocalypticism -- especially since this Jesus bloke was talking about the end coming soon too. This all fits with the way someone in a Pauline community might conceive of Jesus' life -- he was completely misunderstood. And also consider that all of what we have may have come from Pauline communities.



It was included because it was central to their schools of thought.

In fact, because the Transfiguration may be seen as not fitting well with the narrative flow of Matthew and Luke, its inclusion strongly suggests that it was so central to their communties of belief that it simply could not be omitted.

For them, the conception of Jesus as a new Moses and a new Elijah -- the founder of the nation of Israel and the renewer of the nation of Israel -- was indispensible.

Yeah, very probable. I think it reflects badly on the composers of those two gospels (as writers), however, since that image doesn't work very well in Matthew and Luke (as opposed to Mark, where it is integral), or it is inconsequential.

John, writing farther outside the Jewish community and tradition, and perhaps later in time after the destruction of the Temple, is much less connected with a sense of fulfillment of Hebrew prophecy. From his omission of the Transfiguration -- as well as his rather generic treatment of "the Jews" as something other than the Jesus movement -- we can conclude that his community were primarily concerned with a Pauline focus on personal salvation through faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In fact, for John, this is something of an ahistorical event, a spiritual event injected into human time, through which we connect with the divine. It hardly seems to matter that God chose to perform that event when and where he did. If God had decided to make the Word flesh somewhere in Greece, for example, that would have done just as well.



Well, after the destruction of the 2nd Temple, which effectively marked the end of Judaism as it was practiced in Jesus' day -- and, for that matter, the legalism and practices and political conflict he so vehemently opposed -- much of the justification for the original Jesus movement simply vanished.

Their theology had to be reinvented.

And as Xianity was transplanted to other communities, all of those references lost their immediate significance, and they were simplified, re-interpreted as metaphor, or seen as symbols of larger truths applicable to the communities of those places and times.

After the destruction of the Temple, and outside of the Jewish culture, there is simply no longer anyone to restrain the narrative, so it begins to grow in unanticipated directions.

What we see in John is a narrative composed of later, post-Temple, extra-Jewish traditions.

ETA: For the audience of Matthew, the loss of the Temple would have been seen as a cataclysm, and apocalyptic expactations would have been high. For Luke's audience, it would likely have been viewed more as a sign of the fulfillment of days. Mark's account may have been written before the destruction of the Temple. For John's audience, it appears to have been much more distant, much less central.


Well, that's one of the issues I wanted to raise, because I think that all of these works were probably composed after the destruction of the Temple. Matthew and Luke clearly were and Mark probably was too. I also think that all of them were extra-Jewish to some degree. Paul seemed to get most of his converts in the communities surrounding Jewish expatriates (rather than from Jewish converts themselves).

Perhaps I am wrong in thinking so, but I am of the opinion that the gospels were all composed outside of Palestine and probably all outside of Jewish communities -- perhaps some (and probably Matthew, likely Mark) in communities that abutted expatriate Jewish groups. There is so much emphasis on the word being moved to the Romans that I have to believe that Roman citizens wrote most of this stuff.

Granted, there is a change that we can see in John, but my point is that that sort of change belies the idea that there was a strong written tradition that some authors fought to maintain. I think things were much more fluid in the early years, especially before there was a strong written tradition.

In essence, what I am doing is calling into question the idea that a strong tradition existed that the author of Mark would necessarily follow as part of some early proto-orthodoxy. What if he created what would become that proto-orthodoxy? And what if he created many of those stories to promote that proto-orthodox position -- not whole-cloth, but from earlier traditions that were handed to him? He needn't have received all the tales that he recounted in order to promote the same tradition.

Now, he could have created an entirely new tradition based on a re-interpretation following the Temple destruction, we can't really know. Keep in mind that I am only speculating here. But I do have another agenda, and it is this -- to discuss this, we must make assumptions. As Tom Stoppard tried to tell us in "Arcadia", historical assumptions may lead us down the wrong path.

In particular, the assumptions we make in deciding what likely goes back to the "historical Jesus" -- like the idea that Christians would be unlikely to repeat "this tradition" -- might lead us to unwarranted conclusions. What if the authors of the texts had particular intentions that created the need to portray Jesus in a way that the later tradition might not have preferred? That doesn't necessarily mean that at an earlier time it would be impossible to think so.
 
Look at the big picture and ask yourself, "If Mark had a completely free hand and were intending to generate an original theology, would he have written this?", and I think you'll be obliged to answer "No".

The explanation that best fits the entirety of the evidence is that Mark's purpose was to compose a narrative out of existing traditions that were considered scriptural at the time.


But, again, I'm not arguing an entirely new tradition with Mark, but only that certain traditions might have originated with him. This was a traumatic time -- following the destruction of the Temple. Constructing a narrative out of pre-existing traditions might well have included new inventions that helped butress the new reality -- the Temple went down, so now we can be sure that Jesus was right and then End really is going to come soon. You guys didn't believe us when the Romans weren't actively killing us all, but what do you think now? None of you believed in this guy when he was just a crucified criminal, but the End times are now upon us -- how can you freakin' doubt it -- and that's what this Jesus was all about.

I can see how new stories might easily have been invented in that scenario.
 
But, again, I'm not arguing an entirely new tradition with Mark, but only that certain traditions might have originated with him. This was a traumatic time -- following the destruction of the Temple. Constructing a narrative out of pre-existing traditions might well have included new inventions that helped butress the new reality -- the Temple went down, so now we can be sure that Jesus was right and then End really is going to come soon. You guys didn't believe us when the Romans weren't actively killing us all, but what do you think now? None of you believed in this guy when he was just a crucified criminal, but the End times are now upon us -- how can you freakin' doubt it -- and that's what this Jesus was all about.

I can see how new stories might easily have been invented in that scenario.

But Mark may very well have been written before the destruction of the 2nd Temple.

And again, I have to recommend that you ask yourself the critical question: Given the totality of what we see in Mark, which is more likely -- that his aim was to fabricate a new theology, or to create a narrative from the current orthodoxy?

I hope you're not going to lapse into "just asking questions" mode.
 
But Mark may very well have been written before the destruction of the 2nd Temple.

And again, I have to recommend that you ask yourself the critical question: Given the totality of what we see in Mark, which is more likely -- that his aim was to fabricate a new theology, or to create a narrative from the current orthodoxy?

I hope you're not going to lapse into "just asking questions" mode.


I hope you don't think I have some grand agenda behind the questions I am asking. My concern in exploring these issues is just those assumptions that we make when discussing the historical Jesus. I am not "just asking questions", but I am definitely playing devil's advocate. I haven't explored all of these issues in much detail before, and there are bits that cause me to question exactly what the texts mean.

I think it is clear that Mark did not create a whole new theology. The only pre-existing theology that we know for sure was Paul's -- and Mark fits with Paul's apocalypticism nicely, as I tried to mention above.

It does bother me, though, why a dedicated apocalypticist would write anything down. If the End of the World is right around the corner -- and the reference to Daniel in Jesus' eschatological discourse can certainly be interpreted to mean that the author thought it was going to happen within only a few years -- what would be the point of composing a work of art? I don't recall the Heaven's Gate community or Branch Davidians writing much down, but I didn't follow either of those groups closely.

It could very well be that we are humans and we do what humans do -- and part of that includes creation, especially literary creation.

I think another explanation could be that the author of Mark was working out in his mind a complex argument -- all of the reasons why Jesus was the Messiah -- in the time after the destruction of the 2nd Temple. It could have been an attempt for him to get it clear in his mind how to go about discussing this material -- one big 'see we told you so', in light of the Temple coming down, to new converts. Or it may have served the same purpose as an apocalypse, to buttress the faithful in tough times -- "stick it out guys, just three more years".

Sure, it could be that Mark was initially composed before the Temple came down, with the references to the Temple destruction being added later (or even serving a metaphorical purpose by referring back to the destruction of the first Temple, a reminder of just how tough those times were). I think it more likely that it was written after 70 C.E., but there is no way to prove it one way or the other.

Again, I don't think Mark attempted to create a new theology. I do, however, question if our assumption that there was a set proto-orthodoxy before Mark was composed is correct. Looking at Paul's letters, I think it appears clear that there was a definite view that one was supposed to take, at least in the Pauline communities, regarding the resurrection and proper behavior in these End Times, but I don't get a sense that there was a strict view of Jesus such that no one could make up stories about him. In fact, I might even think the opposite -- why could it not be the case that you could make up any stories about him you wished, as long as the stories carried the real point, that the End of the World was imminent, and none of us initially realized that Jesus was the Messiah and that he was coming back as the cosmic judge? Many of the stories in Mark could have been invented for that purpose and become part of the tradition that we call proto-orthodoxy (again, not creating a new theology, but buttressing its basic ideas through these new stories) since the stories themselves were considered metaphorical from the outset.

In suggesting this I'm trying to look at it from the viewpoint of an apocalypticist, someone who truly thinks the end is coming very, very soon. It seems to me that perspective might shed light on how and why Mark was written as it was written in the first place.
 
I hope you don't think I have some grand agenda behind the questions I am asking.

Sorry, I forgot to put the winkie ;) after my "just asking questions" line. It was a joke.

This kind of dialog is really the best way, imo, to think and re-think the scriptures. There's so much we don't know, and it's complicated, so asking the questions, all kinds of questions, is a good thing.

Gotta go out for my bike ride, and a picking buddy may come by after that, but you definitely have me digging into Mark, which I enjoy.

More later....
 

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