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Scriptural literacy

Sorry joobz, I misunderstood your mis.............. well whatever

And yes, Radrook seems to insist on a metod that will land us back in the iron age.

Maybe he just realised that, and has left rather than explain himself to Piggy.
 
Sorry joobz, I misunderstood your mis.............. well whatever

And yes, Radrook seems to insist on a metod that will land us back in the iron age.

Maybe he just realised that, and has left rather than explain himself to Piggy.

Just in case he hasn't fled, if anyone else would care to hear the answers to these questions:

1. What are these principles you keep refering to?

2. What are your credentials? Who have you studied under, and where? What books have they published? What digs have they worked on? What courses have you taught, and where?

3. Would you care to suggest a section of text as an example so that we can see how these principles of scholarship work?

Would you mind reposting them, please?

Thanks.
 
Just in case he hasn't fled, if anyone else would care to hear the answers to these questions:

1. What are these principles you keep refering to?

2. What are your credentials? Who have you studied under, and where? What books have they published? What digs have they worked on? What courses have you taught, and where?

3. Would you care to suggest a section of text as an example so that we can see how these principles of scholarship work?

Would you mind reposting them, please?

Thanks.
Actually,
I could care less for #2.
I think questions 1 and 3 are very good and I hope that Radrook will answer them.
 
If scriptural literacy were straight forward there wouldn't be 50 million different denominations - many of whom do not talk to each other. Perhaps the pre-reformation priests were right to keep it out of the hands of the plebs.

One might have imagined that such a work would be unambiguous like an IKEA instruction pamphlet ;)
 
I just ask question 2 because of Radrook's continual insults against the work of respected scholars.
I figured as much, but I felt it only provided fodder for him to ignore the other questions.
 
There seems to be a self-generating misunderstanding concerning my position. Please note that my argument isn't one of elevating the Bible above all other literary works. My argument is one of approaching the Bible as all other a literary works are approached and evaluating it accordingly. My objections are against those who feel justified in to ignoring literary evaluation principles, such as context, when it comes it the Bible but who will vehemently insist in applying them when it comes to other literature. Such inconsistency is unjustifiable, unethical, and smacks of a dishonest effort to besmirch at all costs.

Well Radrook, how long are you going to keep arguing your position on interpretation without giving an example of misinterpretation?
 
Two whole additional pages worth of posts and Radrook has still failed to qualify what he means by principles of biblical interpretation, failed to provide specific examples of the straw claims he was railing against in his original post, failed to state his own credentials despite placing such a high importance on them, and failed to demonstrate his own capacity to carry on a productive civil discussion. His tactics are cowardly and arrogant, his claims are hypocritical and dishonest, and the only purpose any given discussion serves is for him to project his failed reasoning onto others while declaring superiority and victory.

Why on Earth would Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your front door if they're disinterested or even afraid of being exposed to opinions, beliefs, or interpretations that differ from theirs in the slightest? Why on Earth would anyone come to a skeptic's forum, where you know people are going to have a huge variety of different beliefs, and then act surprised or offended when not everyone agrees with them at face value? Nobody has a right not to be offended, or to have their opinions exalted at the expense of all others. If we're going to talk about attitudes that make discussion impossible, let's start with the attitude that people with a difference of opinion are a waste of time, therefore one should only thump one's chest and hurl petulant insults, as opposed to stating or explaining one's position.

The validity of principles for biblical interpretation ought to be evaluated based on the conclusions they lead to. I think Radrook's conclusions, that death is no worse than suspended animation, or that slaughtering children is no worse than putting them to sleep, speak volumes about the validity of his principles, as well as his credentials. This not a personal attack; he has repeatedly cited himself as his primary source, therefore he is the one who has drawn fire onto his own credibility. Consider a Muslim theologian who has studied his Qur'an for a lifetime and comes to the conclusion that it's justified to suicide bomb people for having different beliefs. It does not matter that he has followed rigidly defined principles for interpretation. His conclusions blow his credibility out of the water. The same goes for a Christian theologian who has years of study and teaching under his belt, and comes to the conclusion that divinely ordained slaughter, executions, wars, and genocide are justifiable "in a biblical context." The obvious problem with this sort of "biblical context" is that it effectively renders the bible dangerous, if not useless, as a guide for how to live one's life.


If the bible is at all like other works of literature, then it stands to reason that there would be multiple valid interpretations:

Consider Shakespeare's Hamlet. Is Hamlet merely a disturbed individual feigning insanity to entrap those around him, or is he genuinely insane? Just how far does his madness extend, and does his affection for his mother constitute an Oedipus complex? Also, does the play have to strictly be a tragedy, or could it also be done as a dark comedy or action thriller? The thing is, none of these interpretations are necessarily incorrect.

Consider the character of Dumbledore following the release of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Was he simply a good natured mentor who wanted what was best for Harry and the school? Or was he a fanatic who took his good intentions too far, manipulating both friends and enemies like a chessmaster, even from beyond the grave? Either interpretation could be valid.

To get back to the topic of the bible, consider the character of Judas. While frequently villified as a prime example of treacheary and betrayal, to the point where Dante portrayed him as one of three irredeemably evil souls that Lucifer is chewing on for all eternity on the bottom layer of hell, Judas has frequently been given sympathetic alternate interpretations. In the rock musical Jesus Christ Superstar the story is actually told from Judas's perspective. He turned Jesus over because he was afraid that Jesus's following would lead to increasing extremism and eventually violent suppression at the hands of the Romans, so he tried to stem these events before things got out of hand. He wasn't interested in the blood money he was offered. Another possibility is that Judas was acting on secret orders from Jesus, who believed the crucifixion to be part of the divine plan, which would therefore make Judas an instrument of destiny and divine purpose.


Not only are different views, opinions, and interpretations necessary to make a discussion possible, they're also what makes it interesting and worthwhile. If only one point of view were allowed to be dictated, then it isn't really a discussion at all. If anything truly kills a discussion, it's closed-minded bigots who are only interested in preaching themselves at you at the expense of all other points of view.
 
To get back to the topic of the bible, consider the character of Judas. While frequently villified as a prime example of treacheary and betrayal, to the point where Dante portrayed him as one of three irredeemably evil souls that Lucifer is chewing on for all eternity on the bottom layer of hell, Judas has frequently been given sympathetic alternate interpretations. In the rock musical Jesus Christ Superstar the story is actually told from Judas's perspective. He turned Jesus over because he was afraid that Jesus's following would lead to increasing extremism and eventually violent suppression at the hands of the Romans, so he tried to stem these events before things got out of hand. He wasn't interested in the blood money he was offered. Another possibility is that Judas was acting on secret orders from Jesus, who believed the crucifixion to be part of the divine plan, which would therefore make Judas an instrument of destiny and divine purpose.

My favorite re-visioning of the Judas stories comes from Jorge Luis Borges's "Three Versions of Judas". In one of those versions, it is not Jesus who is the sacrificial lamb, but Judas.

After all, Jesus suffers for a very short time, then ascends to his seat at the right hand of the Father in paradise for eternity and achieves adoration on Earth.

Judas, on the other hand, is condemned to hell and worldwide condemnation.

So it was not Jesus who was sacrificed, and Judas who was the vehicle of that sacrifice, but the other way around. Jesus was the vehicle for the one who really was despised, who really was sacrificed -- Judas, the true Son of God, the true Sacrificial Lamb.
 
Just in case he hasn't fled, if anyone else would care to hear the answers to these questions:

1. What are these principles you keep refering to?

2. What are your credentials? Who have you studied under, and where? What books have they published? What digs have they worked on? What courses have you taught, and where?

3. Would you care to suggest a section of text as an example so that we can see how these principles of scholarship work?

Would you mind reposting them, please?

Thanks.

I'd like Radrook to address these points too, but only if he actually addresses them, instead of responding with another "Tactics of the Godless" type post.

I have another question I'd like answered (especially by Radrook):

Given the following points...
* Deuteronomy 18:20-22 describes a false prophet as one who gives a prophecy which does not come true.
* 2 Peter 1:20 tells us that prophecy is not open to private interpretation.
* Jesus repeatedly prophecies that the "Heaven and earth will pass away" within their lifetimes. (eg, Matthew 16:27-28, 23:29-36, 24:31-35.)

How do the Christ-based faiths reconcile these points without concluding that Jesus was a false prophet?
 
My favorite re-visioning of the Judas stories comes from Jorge Luis Borges's "Three Versions of Judas". In one of those versions, it is not Jesus who is the sacrificial lamb, but Judas.

After all, Jesus suffers for a very short time, then ascends to his seat at the right hand of the Father in paradise for eternity and achieves adoration on Earth.

Judas, on the other hand, is condemned to hell and worldwide condemnation.

So it was not Jesus who was sacrificed, and Judas who was the vehicle of that sacrifice, but the other way around. Jesus was the vehicle for the one who really was despised, who really was sacrificed -- Judas, the true Son of God, the true Sacrificial Lamb.


Some would consider all this as heresy.

Some would also venture the possibility that Jesus was a bit of a sado-masochist. But I won't go there.


M.
 
Or as Roy Harper put it in his rather cheerful song Don't you Grieve

And now you got all the silver.
And no forgiveness in your hearts.
And I got twenty feet of rope to end
Just where your guessing game starts.
I got endless book to write you
But my tale I cannot tell,
‘Cause my name is Jude Iscariot
And my home address is Hell.
My home address is Hell…
 
How do the Christ-based faiths reconcile these points without concluding that Jesus was a false prophet?

They will cite 2nd Peter, chapter 3, verses 3-10:

NIV said:
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

You see, God counts time differently from how we count time.

And God made a promise to Noah never to destroy the Earth again. That is, until He does destroy the Earth again.

And God is giving everybody lots of time so we can figure all this out and come to the right decision. But at some point, he's going to strike without warning and wipe out everyone who, in their own lifetime, hasn't gotten it right yet.

See how simple it all is?
 
Some would consider all this as heresy.

Some would also venture the possibility that Jesus was a bit of a sado-masochist. But I won't go there.

Well of course it's heresy. No doubt about that.

Just don't ever forget -- Jesus gave up a weekend for your sins. ;)
 
That the scriptures have content that must be considered before evaluation is a universally agreed upon principle which isn't open to negotiation as you woud have it be. The very fact that you question sch a basic requirement is sufficient reason to conclude that you are not familiar with the subject matter. Unfamiliarity with the basics of a subject matter makes any attempts at intelligent discussion an exercise in futility.
 
Consideration of the context of any given literary work doesn't require that the person apply iron age concepts. It merely requires that he consider context when trying to understand what he's reading. You learn that in grade school.
 

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