Split Thread Scottish Independence

So you're saying that because there's no political party standing on a platform of refusing to allow Scotland to be independent even following a successful referendum, then that's that?

We seem to have come to the same conclusion by diametrically opposed routes, but I'd have to class your position as sophistry.

Rolfe.
 
richardm said:
Yeah, but you vote for parties based on a whole basket of policies, not just on one eventuality which may or may not come to pass at the time when you're considering your vote, and that's assuming you can find one that supports that one thing you're looking for.
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Absolutely.
But if the only candidates you can find who share your opinion on a specific subject are ones whose overall policies make it impossible to vote for them, would that not be an indication that you view on the specific subject is not widely shared by the overall electorate?
If it's a fairly mainstream position you'd expect one or more mainstream parties to try to capture that vote, surely.
 
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Rolfe said:
So you're saying that because there's no political party standing on a platform of refusing to allow Scotland to be independent even following a successful referendum, then that's that?
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No.
I'm saying that because the UK parliament is democratically elected the UK electorate has had a say in any decision it makes.
If it ever passes an act resulting in Scottish independence it can only be because the elected representatives of a majority of all constituencies - and not just the Scottish ones - vote for it.

Not that every decision made by a representative democracy is actually supported by a majority of the population, but that is a general point and not one specifically about this question.
 
mbp said:
You (the UK electorate - not you personally) elected the people who were given the power to make such decisions on your behalf. That's how the system currently works. If most people were unhappy with that they could vote for people who'd change the system.
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Those people were elected saying one thing. They then did another, so they did not follow the will of the people. People cannot unsign the Treaty now so your theory fails.

It now probably is a matter of leaving the EU altogether - perhaps getting an arrangement similar to the Norwegian one. In that sense the decision isn't reversible - you can't simply undo Lisbon and nothing else because there's no way the rest of the EU would go along with that.

Too much pickled herring makes you dizzy?
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See above. That train had left without the people getting a referendum on it. The ridiculous changing of the name didnt fool anyone (well maybe a few here)
 
This is all getting a bit silly. I'm prepared to discuss with other UK citizens what could/should/will be the political situation in the event of a successful Scottish referendum on independence. I'm not sure it's terribly productive to argue theoretical tosses with citizens of other countries. Especially when it gets as esoteric as this.

Rolfe.
 
mbp said:
Absolutely.
But if the only candidates you can find who share your opinion on a specific subject are ones whose overall policies make it impossible to vote for them, would that not be an indication that you view on the specific subject is not widely shared by the overall electorate?
If it's a fairly mainstream position you'd expect one or more mainstream parties to try to capture that vote, surely.
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This is your most idiotic post yet.
 
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mbp said:
Denmark itself wasn't independent at the time (1944) so that's an unusual case. I'm not certain how the technicalities would have played out in peacetime. If a change in the Danish constitution was needed then a referendum is unavoidable. Everything else can be done by a sufficiently large (up to 5/6) majority in parliament."

Iceland became independent on Dec. 1. 1918, sharing a king with Denmark under a treaty that was renewable in 25 years. The treaty was up in 1943 so as Denmark was unable to play their part Iceland terminated the agreement and became a republic.
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I'm just remarking that with the outcome of last week's election, the disparity between Scotland and England in voting patterns is the most marked it's ever been.

|England|Scotland
Conservative|268|1
Labour|191|41
LibDem|43|11
SNP|[0]|6

Even during the Thatcher era, Scotland retained a respectable number of Conservative MPs. Even in 1992, when a wipeout was expected, it didn't happen. There was a lot of talk about a possible "constitutional crisis" if a Tory government couldn't staff the Scottish Office, but it didn't arise. There were always enough MPs to do it.

The wipeout didn't happen until 1997, when Labour got its first landslide. At that point there wasn't a single Tory north of the border. This didn't make much odds though, as the Westminster government was Labour, and Scotland had voted Labour. Same thing in 2001 and 2005. (I can't remember if the Tories got a seat back in 2001 or not, but they've had one single seat since 2005.)

Now, however, there has been a Conservative revival in England. Hasn't happened in Scotland, at all. Fourth in terms of both seats and votes. We're probably heading for some sort of Conservative government in Westminster, in my opinion.

There is going to be a lot of complaining about Scotland getting a government it didn't vote for, and Tory policies (read, "cuts") being imposed on Scotland against her will. The logic of independence will probably be fudged in these discussions though, but we might see a much stronger drive towards federalism.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
... There is going to be a lot of complaining about Scotland getting a government it didn't vote for...
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Only from Nats and you lot moan for a living. Lots of people will get a government they didn't vote for. Me for a start. Big deal, it's called democracy.
 
mummymonkey said:
Only from Nats and you lot moan for a living. Lots of people will get a government they didn't vote for. Me for a start. Big deal, it's called democracy.
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No, from Scottish Labour and Scottish Lib Dem supporters too. A lot of my friends, family and collegues also.
 
mummymonkey said:
Only from Nats and you lot moan for a living. Lots of people will get a government they didn't vote for. Me for a start. Big deal, it's called democracy.
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Actually, I didn't say I was complaining. I said there would be a lot of complaining. I think FdeF has outlined who that will be.

Rolfe.
 
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