Split Thread Scottish Independence

[martu]

This is where we ended up last time we had this debate - I remember it well. It's a defensible position, I suppose - if you're willing to ignore a strong element of human nature. However, it's a very general point. As I said,it's equally valid as an argument against the breakup of the USSR or Yugoslavia. When applied specifically to Scottish nationalism, it's a bit of a blunt instrument.

In my opinion, it wouldn't work. It denies the essential tribalism inherent in human nature in much the same way communism denies the essential human desire to have one's own possessions. Even if you had an overarching world federal government, we'd be right back here arguing about the makeup of the next layer down. Administrative units are inevitable.

However, that's academic at the moment. We don't have a world government and we're nowhere close. So with respect, using this as the basis of a vehement argument opposing the legitimate aspirations of a small, peaceful country to equal status with other small, peaceful countries which are members of the EU, is a bit on the irrelevant side.

Rolfe.

This inherent tribalism did not stop your ancestors agreeing to work and live with another clan a few hundred years ago before Alba was created. Would you have fought against your clan joining Architect’s clan back then? If not why not?

 

[martu]

I may not be bright but at least I dont have to lie in my posts to make a point.

And yes, I am different than someone from England, France, Ireland, Wales etc etc.

Please point out the lie.

We're all different, I am different than someone in the next house never mind country. What you have failed to point out is why you are similar to people with the arbitrary label of 'Scottish' and why this should matter more than the arbitrary label ‘British’.

Please enlighten me.

 

[funk de fino]

Please point out the lie.

We're all different, I am different than someone in the next house never mind country. What you have failed to point out is why you are similar to people with the arbitrary label of 'Scottish' and why this should matter more than the arbitrary label ‘British’.

Please enlighten me.

You tried to say I was looking for Scotland for the Scottish. I never said it. I said the opposite.

 

[funk de fino]

The SNP wants to split the people of this island into two groups.

No, they want restore to Scotland as an independent nation.

The BNP wants to split the people of this island into two groups.

No, they do not. They want to get rid of people from the UK and stop people they dont like coming to the UK. There are many groups of people that would fall under their remit.

is also true, the two groups are indigenous (sic) British and the rest.

Desperate and pathetic.

I would point you to my first post on this when I aid the SNP were“not much better than the BNP”. Not the same merely a similar idea of them and us.

We do not need pointed back to that ludicrous post.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't see much point in replying to Martu. He's made his position quite clear, that he opposes any separation at all between countries, and favours one world government. Thus he opposes the creation of any new state, as increasing by one the divisions he finds so abhorrent.

Presumably he also opposed the break-up of Yugoslavia, and the USSR, and Czechoslovakia, and Irish independence, and the secession of Norway from Sweden and Iceland from Denmark and so on.

I'm not quite sure why this makes him quite so vehement in opposition to Scottish independence, in the context of the greater picture - it seems hardly to register at all, in comparison to the number of separate states in Europe at present, never mind the rest of the world.

I merely comment that his ideal of one world government does not exist, nor is it likely to exist in the foreseeable future. Given that, he has shown no reason at all why a small, peaceful nation should not seek to acquire for itself the benefits of statehood enjoyed by so many other nations.

I also reitreate that if the SNP's position on self-government for Scotland is abhorrent to him, then the position of the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties must be equally abhorrent, as they of course favour self-government for the UK in exactly the same way.

Rolfe.

 

[martu]

You tried to say I was looking for Scotland for the Scottish. I never said it. I said the opposite.

Tried to say?? Please quote me and point out the lie and I will apologise.

 

[martu]

No, they want restore to Scotland as an independent nation.

Do they want do this by splitting the people of this island into two groups or not?

Here I'll help you with the groups:

1) People born in the region known as Scotland
2) People not born in the region known as Scotland

Yes or no?

I know you’re having trouble trying to defend your position, this is the problem with all irrational positions, but please this is straightforward logic.

 

[martu]

I don't see much point in replying to Martu. He's made his position quite clear, that he opposes any separation at all between countries, and favours one world government. Thus he opposes the creation of any new state, as increasing by one the divisions he finds so abhorrent.

Presumably he also opposed the break-up of Yugoslavia, and the USSR, and Czechoslovakia, and Irish independence, and the secession of Norway from Sweden and Iceland from Denmark and so on.

I'm not quite sure why this makes him quite so vehement in opposition to Scottish independence, in the context of the greater picture - it seems hardly to register at all, in comparison to the number of separate states in Europe at present, never mind the rest of the world.

I merely comment that his ideal of one world government does not exist, nor is it likely to exist in the foreseeable future. Given that, he has shown no reason at all why a small, peaceful nation should not seek to acquire for itself the benefits of statehood enjoyed by so many other nations.

I also reitreate that if the SNP's position on self-government for Scotland is abhorrent to him, then the position of the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties must be equally abhorrent, as they of course favour self-government for the UK in exactly the same way.

Rolfe.

Deja vu??

 

[Rolfe]

Do they want do this by splitting the people of this island into two groups or not?

Here I'll help you with the groups:

1) People born in the region known as Scotland
2) People not born in the region known as Scotland

Yes or no?

I know you’re having trouble trying to defend your position, this is the problem with all irrational positions, but please this is straightforward logic.

No.^TM
Rolfe.

 

[funk de fino]

Tried to say?? Please quote me and point out the lie and I will apologise.

Here is what you said in reply to me.

I’m sorry but yes – the only way for you to disagree would be for you to say no we do not think there are differences between people. But you do otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation now would we?

BNP – Britain for the British
SNP – Scotland for the Scottish

Ok you’re not as vile as the BNP in wanting to remove all the non Scots but as a premise you think ‘your’ people are different and have different requirements than the rest of us on this island, hence you need to be separate.

Bolded is a lie. Or a very, very stupid mistake.

 

[funk de fino]

Do they want do this by splitting the people of this island into two groups or not?

Here I'll help you with the groups:

1) People born in the region known as Scotland
2) People not born in the region known as Scotland

Yes or no?

I know you’re having trouble trying to defend your position, this is the problem with all irrational positions, but please this is straightforward logic.

No, epic fail.

 

[Lothian]

1. Scottish voters decide if they want self determination. Scotland is not being split in 2.
2. A majority vote of the electoral turn out for the referendum.
3. As 2
3. Scottish parts

Ok and thanks. Would I be right in assuming that you would be happy for, pre scottish independance,


London voters alone deciding if they want self determination. A majority vote of the electoral turn out for the referendum being decisive and London then gaining independance from the UK?


and for, post scottish independence,

Shetland voters alone deciding if they want self determination. A majority vote of the electoral turn out for the referendum being decisive and Shedland then gaining independance from Scotland?

 

[funk de fino]

Ok and thanks. Would I be right in assuming that you would be happy for, pre scottish independance,


London voters alone deciding if they want self determination. A majority vote of the electoral turn out for the referendum being decisive and London then gaining independance from the UK?

Thatss for them to decide. It is one of my business.

and for, post scottish independence,

Shetland voters alone deciding if they want self determination. A majority vote of the electoral turn out for the referendum being decisive and Shedland then gaining independance from Scotland?

Shetland can do what they want. They won't however.

Here's mine :- Lets say that the UKIP got into power and decided to withdraw from the EU.

Should the rest of the EU have a vote on it?

 

[mbp]

Here's mine :- Lets say that the UKIP got into power and decided to withdraw from the EU.

Should the rest of the EU have a vote on it?

The procedure for leaving the EU is defined in the Lisbon treaty. So by ratifying the treaty all the other countries have already had their say and no vote would be required.

 

[funk de fino]

The procedure for leaving the EU is defined in the Lisbon treaty. So by ratifying the treaty all the other countries have already had their say and no vote would be required.

Was there a vote or a referendum on the Lisbon treaty?

 

[Rolfe]

Will Britain be allowed to leave the EU without getting permission via a referendum from all the other member states?

Goose and gander sauce, and all that.

Rolfe.

 

[mbp]

Was there a vote or a referendum on the Lisbon treaty?

Completely irrelevant. The treaty has an exit clause. If you've signed the treaty then you've specifically given all the other members the right to leave. If you haven't signed the treaty then you obviously don't have any say in the matter at all.

 

[mbp]

Will Britain be allowed to leave the EU without getting permission via a referendum from all the other member states?

Yes, there is an exit clause in the Lisbon treaty. Leaving requires a two year notice period and that's that.

Is there something similar in the Act of Union?

 

[Rolfe]

So, the EU seems to think it's fine to allow member states to leave without the permission of the rest. Aren't you outraged by this? Such a secession would have an effect on all the other states, surely they should have a say!

Or maybe the EU treaty just recognised what is international practice regarding secession and dissolution of unions. That one part cannot force another to stay in a union against its will.

Funny how all these English unionists want to write brand new rules specifically applying to Scotland but nowhere else.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Is there something similar in the Act of Union?

Is there anything in the Act of Union which requires the permission of England before the union can be terminated?

Rolfe.