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Split Thread Scottish Independence

That's why I said "splits to reflect geography and population density" I don't think it would make sense for example to ever have a region in which Liverpool and Manchester are in the same region...
 
Darat said:
... I don't think it would make sense for example to ever have a region in which Liverpool and Manchester are in the same region...
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Quite right!

They should have independence.











I'll stop teasing now and go away ... probably. ;)

You can all get on with your serious stuff. Whatever that is.
 
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Quite extraordinary London alone has more people than the entirety of Scotland. What's the stats on population density?
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Quite extraordinary London alone has more people than the entirety of Scotland. What's the stats on population density?
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In the chart below the people in the blue areas tend to be denser.....
250px-2005UKElectionMap.svg.png
 
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martu said:
If you think it's because you're a different from the rest of us here grow up and join the 21st century. Nationalism is ridiculous and irrational unless you lack representation in government.
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You'll be wanting to go for full European union tomorrow then?
 
martu said:
Can someone on the pro independence side please explain to me why they don't want to share the governance of this island with the rest of us south of the (arbitrary) Scottish border? What do you guys want from your government that's different from the rest of us? What are you missing out on today because you are not independent?
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Self determination. See Scotlands voting habits compared to middle England.

If you think it's because you're a different from the rest of us here grow up and join the 21st century. Nationalism is ridiculous and irrational unless you lack representation in government.
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Grow up? Seriously? Get a grip.
 
Darat said:
Seriously do you think (I know I'm taking it to the point of absurdity but it's to make my point very clear) that if just three people in Scotland voted in the referendum on independence and two said "yes" and one said "no" that should then bind the rest of the residents of Scotland to independence? I can't see what is wrong or even unusual in a referendum for a certain percentage of the population to have taken part before it is considered valid.
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Conditions have been used to jack us before. Try attempting to deal with the point instead of making silly comparisons. Conditions should be the same as elections, no? If not, why not?
 
One of the things I find interesting is that many of the arguments against Scottish independence is that they could equally be applied to UK membership of the EU,particularly as regards greater integration. Mark aside (and I too am pro-Europe) I do wonder how many of our unionphile friends would be comfortable with that?
 
I guess I count as a unionphile, I like being united with my cousins (literal and figurative) to the north. I'd also like it if we were more united with our neighbours over the Channel and across the North Sea.

One of the things I find interesting is that many of the arguments against Scottish independence is that they could equally be applied to UK membership of the EU,particularly as regards greater integration. Mark aside (and I too am pro-Europe) I do wonder how many of our unionphile friends would be comfortable with that?
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Not just comfortable, I'm actively in favour of it.
 
Why, in that case, would you oppose a settlement where Scotland and whatever was left were members of the EU in their own right? Which would give Britain a block vote in the Council of Ministers significantly stronger than at present, and if our interests are so strongly aligned, then where would be the down side in that?

Geography is immutable in human time-scales, and Scotland isn't going anywhere. Talk of borders is pretty silly, when borders are getting more and more nominal as Europe integrates. We're all on the same island, and we have a great deal in common. We could form a group similar to the Scandinavian countries, each looking after our own interests and those of our friends and neighbours from a position of respectful equality.

Rolfe.
 
rolfe said:
Why, in that case, would you oppose a settlement where Scotland and whatever was left were members of the EU in their own right?
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I don't know if your addressing me, though since I never mentioned opposing Scottish autonomy it's hard to imagine that you could be addressing me. But then I havn't seen anyone in this thread claim to be dead set against Scottish independance so it's hard to know who you're addressing...
 
Architect said:
You'll be wanting to go for full European union tomorrow then?
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I would all be for it - indeed I am all for a "world government" as well - we know that what one country does can have huge ramifications for the whole of the planet so it would seem sensible to have a tier of government that was global so it can deal with global issues.

Up the Federation!
 
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funk de fino said:
Conditions have been used to jack us before. Try attempting to deal with the point instead of making silly comparisons. Conditions should be the same as elections, no? If not, why not?
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I was dealing with the point - at what point would you say the results should not be binding on the rest of the population? I know you think it requires more than 3 people, so you obviously do have a cut-off point below which you don't think the results should be binding, so what would make it a binding decision, what is your cut-off point?
 
Rolfe said:
Why, in that case, would you oppose a settlement where Scotland and whatever was left were members of the EU in their own right? Which would give Britain a block vote in the Council of Ministers significantly stronger than at present, and if our interests are so strongly aligned, then where would be the down side in that?

Geography is immutable in human time-scales, and Scotland isn't going anywhere. Talk of borders is pretty silly, when borders are getting more and more nominal as Europe integrates. We're all on the same island, and we have a great deal in common. We could form a group similar to the Scandinavian countries, each looking after our own interests and those of our friends and neighbours from a position of respectful equality.

Rolfe.
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So why bother?
 
I caught a piece on Radio 4 last night on my way home (so I didn't get all the details), but there was a report from a Scottish constituency, and one of the (I think) Labour workers was making the point that many people vote SNP in the Scottish Parliamentary elections, but vote Labour in the General Election because they don't actually want independence. A first glance at the number of seats in the respective parliaments suggests there might be some truth in that (at least as regards voting patterns if not motivation), but of course there are two different electoral methods in use. Is there some truth to this, or is it Labour spin?
 
Who knows? There isn't a detailed questionnaire with every ballot paper.

The other side of that coin though, is that a substantial proportion of dyed-in-the-wool Labour voters do support independence, as has been shown by quite a few opinion polls in the past. There was a time a few years ago when the SNP vote was sitting around 25% but the pro-independence vote was around 50%.

Another point is that especially now we have the Scottish parliament, the focus for achieving independence has been moved to that forum. It's perfectly reasonable for voters who favour independence to go for a "unionist" party for Westminster if they think that's the best way to move politics in the general direction they favour.

ETA: I've been noticing a tendency in recent phone-in programmes for Labour activists to get on there and start parroting stock isn't-Gordon-wonderful and the-SNP-are-parochial-whiners rhetoric. It was especially bad this morning, when Kaye Adams was finally forced to start asking them outright if they were Labour activists, on-air.

Rolfe.
 
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