Split Thread Scottish Independence

[Rolfe]

Oh, Darat and I agreed to differ about this some time ago. He believes that a small country taken over by a larger loses its identity and can never reassert it. I don't. This isn't really subject to rational debate, because it's about feelings and beliefs, not reason.

Rolfe.

Split from: Prime Ministerial Debates- Thread.

Posted By: Gaspode

 

[Darat]

Oh, Darat and I agreed to differ about this some time ago. He believes that a small country taken over by a larger loses its identity and can never reassert it. I don't. This isn't really subject to rational debate, because it's about feelings and beliefs, not reason.

Rolfe.

That is not anything like an accurate representations of my views; the nearest to that in my views is that your harking back to some historic non-violent event over 300 years ago is irrelevant to the world we live in today.

My issue with the ending of the country I was born into is based on the fact that I think I should have some say in that, whilst you don't think I should have a say. Now of course that can be said to be based on "feelings", after all the principle of people having a say in their future is only that, a principle and therefore an assertion. I would argue however that countries that do give its citizens equal representation seem to have fared better in recent decades that those that don't.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

My issue with the ending of the country I was born into is based on the fact that I think I should have some say in that,

Good point actually. Why can't the English have some say into Scottish independence? Afterall, you aren't wanting independence from a collapsing or corrupt government who are persecuting you, so why on Earth shouldn't we be able to vote on it too?

 

[Darat]

Good point actually. Why can't the English have some say into Scottish independence? Afterall, you aren't wanting independence from a collapsing or corrupt government who are persecuting you, so why on Earth shouldn't we be able to vote on it too?

We are probably going to get pinged or split for going off-topic but...

I've said this in other discussion that if a significant number of the residents in Scotland want independence I would support their call for it (as I would for NI and Wales), I have no problem with that, but what I would have liked to have seen first of all is that the whole population of my country to be involved in making such decisions about the future of the country.

ETA: Oh and remember this aint about England or Scotland, it is about "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

 

[MarkCorrigan]

We are probably going to get pinged or split for going off-topic but...

I've said this in other discussion that if a significant number of the residents in Scotland want independence I would support their call for it (as I would for NI and Wales), I have no problem with that, but what I would have liked to have seen first of all is that the whole population of my country to be involved in making such decisions about the future of the country.

ETA: Oh and remember this aint about England or Scotland, it is about "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

True, but the SNP seem to have a serious problem with the English and ignore Wales and Northern Ireland unless it's convenient, much like PC (but with a focus on Wales, obviously).

 

[funk de fino]

That is not anything like an accurate representations of my views; the nearest to that in my views is that your harking back to some historic non-violent event over 300 years ago is irrelevant to the world we live in today.

Declaration of Arbroath.

 

[funk de fino]

I think the SNP and PC could gain more support in England for their causes if they didn't continuously use 'London' as an insult. The PC leader was actually caught saying: "Some of my best friends are English".

Also, why does Salmond keep calling Labour a 'London Party'? It's founder was a Scottish as can be.

Maybe if London didnt try and push the fact thay they will deny a referendum in this country then we wouldnt blame them. The SNP have english MP's. All we hear from London is that we would fail if we went alone and that we are not capable of looking after pourselves. That we need the handouts.

I'll tell you what. Stick your handouts and let the people decide if they want to go alone. Not the morons who run the parties. If the people vote against it then we keep the status quo.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

You know that decisions of referendums are not made in places like Neasden and Cricklewood Broadway right?

Call them 'Whitehall parties' if you like.

 

[funk de fino]

You know that decisions of referendums are not made in places like Neasden and Cricklewood Broadway right?

Call them 'Whitehall parties' if you like.

nitpicking eh?

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Nitpicking? It's a city with a larger population than the entirety of Scotland and Wales combined, it's not nitpicking to point out that you are unfairly accusing this city of holding back your quest for Independence.

 

[funk de fino]

Nitpicking? It's a city with a larger population than the entirety of Scotland and Wales combined, it's not nitpicking to point out that you are unfairly accusing this city of holding back your quest for Independence.

You know what London means in this case. I used to live just outside London, I love the place.

This is nitpicking.

 

[Debaser]

Maybe if London didnt try and push the fact thay they will deny a referendum in this country then we wouldnt blame them. The SNP have english MP's. All we hear from London is that we would fail if we went alone and that we are not capable of looking after pourselves. That we need the handouts.

I'll tell you what. Stick your handouts and let the people decide if they want to go alone. Not the morons who run the parties. If the people vote against it then we keep the status quo.

And when was the last time you heard even a whisper from 'that there London' of a referendum for the English people to allow them to free themselves from the 'Celts'? We are no more a collection of regions, as they would have us, than you are.

 

[Debaser]

This is nitpicking.

No, it's a corrupting state of mind that appears to be widespread north of the border, to the extent of disowning and dismissing Brown, Darling and the rest as 'London politicians'.

 

[Rolfe]

And when was the last time you heard even a whisper from 'that there London' of a referendum for the English people to allow them to free themselves from the 'Celts'? We are no more a collection of regions, as they would have us, than you are.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. Nobody's stopping you, carry on.

No, it's a corrupting state of mind that appears to be widespread north of the border, to the extent of disowning and dismissing Brown, Darling and the rest as 'London politicians'.

And if the state of mind north of the border is a problem, have you thought about why that might be?

Rolfe.

 

[funk de fino]

And when was the last time you heard even a whisper from 'that there London' of a referendum for the English people to allow them to free themselves from the 'Celts'? We are no more a collection of regions, as they would have us, than you are.

You can knock yourselves out pal. If you want freedom I would support it.

 

[funk de fino]

No, it's a corrupting state of mind that appears to be widespread north of the border, to the extent of disowning and dismissing Brown, Darling and the rest as 'London politicians'.

Stop havering. It's a use of the term for political reasons. If the parliament and parties were based elswhere we would use that.

 

[Darat]

I, for one, have never though Salmond should go near this national debate. The Tories should not get near the Scottish one either.

Of course not you want to break-up the UK, like Salmond so, like Salmond you are happy with anything you think can be used to make your case stronger!

 

[Architect]

Aha, but you don't want Scotland to withdraw from the Union and, like the various Unionist parties, you are happy with anything you think helps prevent support for the SNP!

 

[Darat]

Aha, but you don't want Scotland to withdraw from the Union and, like the various Unionist parties, you are happy with anything you think helps prevent support for the SNP!

Er no... As I have repeatedly stated if the people living in Scotland want independence they should have it, I just think the proposed process is wrong. That's why it is funny when Rolfe and others calls me a "unionist" - I'm not, I just happen to think I should have a say in the future of my country i.e. the UK.

 

[funk de fino]

Of course not you want to break-up the UK, like Salmond so, like Salmond you are happy with anything you think can be used to make your case stronger!

No, thats your view. I want to return my country to a free and independant nation. How can anything make my case stronger when I disagree with him being on the debate? You've lost me there.