School uniforms

[SumDood]

Uniforms have been implemented in my city with much resistance. I think the issue that put it over the top was security. With everyone dressed the same, its easier to locate someone who doesn't belong trespassing on school grounds.

 

[commandlinegamer]

"Waffle trousers"?

Serge/polyester fabric woven in such a way as to create a 3D square effect. Presumably there's a proper name for it which escapes me.

 

[GreyArea]

Is it a bad idea to discourage that brand of individuality at such a young age, or is it wise to show children that they are all equal in the school system, with no one pupil beating the other in terms of dress (I know that isn't the only reason they exist, but I like that idea nonetheless)?

I don't like the idea of uniforms, mostly because I support expression of individuality. Unfortunately, few children use this freedom and instead try to emulate someone else, usually a person of fame or ill-repute. So maybe it doesn't matter, except for the fact that there's no point punishing everyone in school for the tackiness of the majority. There are always a few kids who genuinely make their own way.

And they buy the designer clothes anyway for after school and weekends. So its uniforms and designer clothes not uniforms or designers clothes.

I was going to ask the pro-uniform people how it's cheaper. Do the kids change clothes after school? When I was a kid I wore the same thing all day, but I don't know if I would have done that if I had to wear a uniform to school.

And how many copies of the uniform do you have to buy? Five maybe, one for each day of the week? Or do the kids wear them a couple of times between washings?

The thought of kitting out a 13 year old girl in designer clothes each day is terrifying.

Why would you buy a 13-year-old girl clothes from Coco Chanel or Jean-Paul Gaultier? What boys wear Armani suits to junior high? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what is meant by "designer clothes".

If kids really want status-competition clothes, they can wait until they can legally get a job and pay for it themselves.

 

[Beerina]

Here's some of the list from the local girls' high....

Junior Skirt 56cm – 107cm $85.00
Senior Skirt 56cm – 107cm $90.00
Short/Long Sleeve Blouse 8 – 24 $60.00
Navy Jersey 82cm – 122cm $80.00
Red Jersey 82cm – 122cm $65.00

So based on 5 Blouses, a jersey of each colour, and 2 skirts, that's $590, not including stockings and shoes, which could be another $90-$150, or the uniform for Phys Ed which is another $200+ for 2 polos, trackpants and shorts.

Follow the money. Where're the local investigative reporters when you need 'em?

 

[Belgian thought]

Uniforms in my day were a perfect way of identifying the toffs from the plebs. All had to wear blazers/jackets with the school colours and emblem clearly on show. Ooh we knew who was what in them days, learnt how not to mix with them etc.. and get into class fights too. I reminisce, I reminisce...

Now I see kids all looking the same, and have no idea whether I should curse or bless them – therefore I have opted for the former.

 

[ScottyMate]

It's strange, even though I hated the school uniform at the time. It's only through watching American shows and seeing kids going to school without them, that makes me feel like they should be part of the school experience.
To me, kids in class wearing all sorts makes them look disorganized. I guess I associate a school uniform with discipline. Of course, I doubt it effects kids behavior at all, but it makes things look - um - uniform? Tidy, respectful, there to do work. It just looks weird to think of schools without a uniform. I also remember running home and getting back into some casuals felt like liberation. The difference made me appreciate off days more.

As for price, you can get clothes extremely cheap at supermarkets. Especially just before the new term starts.

 

[AmandaM]

Okay, it shouldn't be this way, but it is:

Kids DO judge other kids on their clothes. More expensive, or trendy designer clothes (I'm not talking Burberry, but the stuff is still expensive) means a higher social standing. Wearing Wal-Mart clothes in a middle school or high school full of Tommy, Vena Cava, and Juicy Couture is akin to cruel and unusual punishment, because the Wal-Mart kids WILL get picked on and singled out for abuse.

Our county school system implemented a "uniform" last year, of tan or navy pants or skirt, and some kind of tan or navy top. So THIS year, all the "cool kids" are wearing D&G khakis, and the Wal-Mart tan pant crowd is STILL picked on, and still ostracized. Anybody who thinks having a school uniform will somehow "equalize" teenagers has obviously never set foot in a school. (Heck even the standard ballet class uniform -- black leotard, pink tights -- is subject to the peer pressure standard, and "designer" leotards are all the rage. ????!!!!)

I don't want to see kids in uniforms, unless they're ROTC or Junior Fire Fighters. There's just something in me that hates the idea.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Personally, I am for school uniforms.

Yeah, me too

 

[WildCat]

Know who else thought school uniforms were a good idea?

Hitler!

 

[Jack by the hedge]

With kids growing out of their uniforms very quickly, many prep schools here in the UK sell second-hand clothing in the school shop. I don't know how popular it is, though.

For a while, my wife volunteered to organise selling secondhand uniforms for our kids' (state) primary school. They took donations and sold them for 50p or a pound per item (to school funds). The problem was they had lots of donors but hardly any buyers. While everyone agreed it was a good thing to get more use out of clothes that kids quickly grow out of, when it came down to dressing their own precious offspring in someone else's castoffs, they couldn't quite bring themselves to do it.

 

[commandlinegamer]

While everyone agreed it was a good thing to get more use out of clothes that kids quickly grow out of, when it came down to dressing their own precious offspring in someone else's castoffs, they couldn't quite bring themselves to do it.

Could be worse; I was listening to Radio 4 on Sunday and their dramatisation of a novel about a foster child, who finds out the clothes she's been wearing belonged to the dead son of the people who are looking after her.

 

[zooterkin]

I don't know, have you seen the prices of uniforms? Designer clothes are likely cheaper.

For a single outfit, possibly, but the uniform is, or should be, designed to last, and should get worn many more times than a designer outfit which could go out of fashion quickly.

 

[ingoa]

Why would you buy a 13-year-old girl clothes from Coco Chanel or Jean-Paul Gaultier? What boys wear Armani suits to junior high? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what is meant by "designer clothes".

If kids really want status-competition clothes, they can wait until they can legally get a job and pay for it themselves.

13 year old? I know a shop in Geneva (Switzerland) which is named "Baby Dior".
Linky. $351 for a jeans for a 3 year old kid. Yikes!



Note to myself: Kids are expensive. Buy more condoms.

 

[Travis]

I've always hated the very idea of uniforms. I can only understand their use when there is a practical need for them (such as in the military or with law enforcement) otherwise I oppose them as a dehumanizing violation of personal liberty and expression.

So, no, I would not be in favor of their implementation in any school my kids go to.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

I've always hated the very idea of uniforms. I can only understand their use when there is a practical need for them (such as in the military or with law enforcement) otherwise I oppose them as a dehumanizing violation of personal liberty and expression.

But you can see how they can promote an egalitarian effect surely? In such a setting, children can experience freedom from prejudice.

 

[quadraginta]

But you can see how they can promote an egalitarian effect surely? In such a setting, children can experience freedom from prejudice.

Did you mean for a smilie to be implied in that post?

Even if every child wore exactly the same quality uniforms supplied by exactly the same manufacturer and all of the clothes were provided free of cost to the students so that none of them were over-worn or hand-me-downs I am confident they would have no problem finding ways to discriminate against each other. That's just the way kids are.

It is quite possible there would be fewer ways that the adults could easily discern, which is why I'm inclined to think of uniforms as a solution for peer-on-peer discrimination as something of a band-aid approach to the problem.

 

[Bikewer]

As quadraginta says. My wife, as a Catholic-school girl way back when, said the uniforms made no difference; girls instantly knew who had money and who didn't, and formed the usual cliques.
Shoes, handbags, accessories, etc.

I was in the possibly-unique position as a Catholic lad in the 50s where the boys did not have to wear uniforms (though we did have a dress code) but the girls did. This was through high school; the girls in typical-for-the-time blue skirts, white shirts, and a blazer if desired.
Reasons cited for being in favor of uniforms today include the above-mentioned security situation, less "distraction" in class, (as if boys would not ogle good-looking girls just because they were wearing uniforms...) and cost issues.

 

[mediocrity511]

Personally I think uniforms are a good idea, so long as the items are readily available and not overly expensive. When I was at school we wore a uniform, apart from one day at the end of term which was a non-uniform day to raise money for charity and I used to dread it!

Ok so kids will judge each other no matter what, but I do think uniforms lessen that and in the UK low income families can receive a grant for uniforms, which means their kids are kitted out pretty much the same as everyone else. Schools also tend to keep spare stuff in, which means that if someone forgets their PE kit, or has an accident, then spares can be lent out. It's also a major bonus on school trips, I help out on some sometimes and when you're in charge of ensuring kids don't get lost it's very handy to know what you have to look out for! Also useful of kids are mucking around on buses or in shops.
I do also think it lessens the ability of children to wear inappropriate clothing, I mean obviously some teenage girls will get away with the shortest skirt possible, but there are rules. We didn't have a uniform at 6th form and I can remember endless student council discussions over wether there should be a rule that no cleavage should be on show and how would it be implemented.

 

[iknownothing]

Kids DO judge other kids on their clothes. More expensive, or trendy designer clothes (I'm not talking Burberry, but the stuff is still expensive) means a higher social standing. Wearing Wal-Mart clothes in a middle school or high school full of Tommy, Vena Cava, and Juicy Couture is akin to cruel and unusual punishment, because the Wal-Mart kids WILL get picked on and singled out for abuse.

I think that depends on the school (and the population it draws from). That was true where I went to grade school/middle school, but the high school was pretty relaxed.

 

[luchog]

But you can see how they can promote an egalitarian effect surely? In such a setting, children can experience freedom from prejudice.

Even if every child wore exactly the same quality uniforms supplied by exactly the same manufacturer and all of the clothes were provided free of cost to the students so that none of them were over-worn or hand-me-downs I am confident they would have no problem finding ways to discriminate against each other. That's just the way kids are.

I didn't have uniforms in school, but a number of my friends and aquaintances did; and their experiences were similar. You could always tell which ethnic group, socio-economic class, and social clique a particular student belonged to, regardless of the uniform; and there were still the same prejudices practiced. Someone else mentioned the difference between the designer uniforms and Wal-Mart versions of the same being clear indicators; but there are many more.

While I don't oppose the idea of uniforms per se; there is absolutely no indicating that they do anything to resolve any of the problems that proponents claim they will; and plenty of evidence they don't. The primary purpose of uniforms is plain and simple conformity. At best, they help foster a sense of community; at worst, they help suppress individuality. It's interesting to note that communities where school uniforms are most strictly enforced are very often also those where individuality is least valued. In Japan, there are very strict standards for school uniforms; and in the past were required outside of school as well as during school. Individuality is also not highly valued, "The nail that sticks up gets pounded down". In the UK and US, communities that strongly support school uniforms also tended to be those that valued conformity.