Save a life, get arrested.

renata said:
Now rescuers had to rescue 12 people instead of one. Of course I am not saying that people should do nothing if someone is drowning- but if there are qualified people around, the best anyone can do is get out of their way.
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I agree; but there is no indication that the hilighted portion was true in this case.

Even if it was, does that justify putting these well-meaning people under arrest?
 
manny said:
Another of the stories which turned up on a Google News search talked about an EMS team which was 'assessing the situation' or 'trying to clear the area or somesuch.
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Link?

Until I see otherwise, I'm believing the conclusions of the people who were there at the time, and were so convinced that they even stood in the way of the police arresting Newman.
 
http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=3558102&nav=0s3dbnKB

"Authorities say he kept EMS personnel from immediately assessing the scene."


And, as we predicted, more becomes known with time. It doesn't become more clear, but more is known. EMS told him to clear the water after he had jumped in, not before, but before he had found the guy. Newman tossed back a rescue buoy when EMS hadn't determined that the danger was over. Turns out the guy wasn't drowning after all, but was in an air pocket. (In other news, that article has a pic of the river. They let people swim in that? Glad I'm not their liability carrier.)
 
Kiless said:
Well, there's a variety of ways you can help without putting yourself at risk. I'd say just jumping in is silly, if that is what has happened. There's not enough detail in the story. Throwing in a floatation device, coordinating to get a branch out to them or a rope, making a chain of people (or is that just getting more people in trouble like in Renata's story? 12 people, making a chain.....argh!)....I'm not a lifesaver but I recall these as being a few methods that should be preferred.
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This is just what I was taught at school.

The public officers no doubt have detailed standing orders and procedures, and are well aware of the litigation likely to ensue if they divert from them. From manny's cite it seems they had a deliberately disruptive individual on the scene, and it is probably their procedure to remove said disruption as first priority.

Imagine SWAT turning up at a hostage-taking and finding a neighbourhood ex-Marine getting gung-ho. What's their first priority? Same thing here. Drown the cocky git, then rescue the other guy.
 
Apparently, he got the drowning man out of the water and did not immediately get out himself as directed. He says it was because he was exhausted and taking a breather. He may also have refused a life buoy.

By the time most personnel arrived about 3:10 p.m., Abed Duamni of Houston had already been pulled to safety, but emergency workers didn't know if there were others in danger at the time, Bell said.

Newman, who was still in the water, reportedly threw back a buoy rescue workers tossed to him and swam to the opposite side of the river. He hesitated before answering a Texas State University police officer's demand that he return to the bank where workers were still trying to assess the situation, according to officials' accounts.
Authorities agree he helped the victim, Abdul Duamni, out of the water, but they say afterwards Newman failed to get out right-away.

"He was not obeying what they said or responding to their request. All he would have had to do was come across the river," Ralph Myers with Texas State University Police said.
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What a joke. Will he get a medal along with his fine?

CBL
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manny said:
http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=3558102&nav=0s3dbnKB

"Authorities say he kept EMS personnel from immediately assessing the scene."
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Erm, not quite. A couple of paragraphs before that:

"Authorities agree he helped the victim, Abdul Duamni, out of the water, but they say afterwards Newman failed to get out right-away."

And towards the end:

"Authorities say they draw a distinct line between two scenarios. On the one hand, they're grateful he helped get this man to safety. After the rescue, authorities say he made it hard for them to control the situation."

So all of that happened after he saved the guy.

And, as we predicted, more becomes known with time. It doesn't become more clear, but more is known. EMS told him to clear the water after he had jumped in, not before, but before he had found the guy.
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Apparently, he also had help rescuing the guy:

"I touched something, and then, when I came back up, the police were yelling for everyone out of the water, out of the water, and I knew that I had brushed something up in there. And I thought one more attempt was worth risking going against their wishes, the police.

"And when I went down again, a foot appeared amidst the bubbles and so forth. And I thought it was the foot of a dead man. And I grabbed it and pulled and there was no response. I grabbed his shorts, his swimsuit, and pulled myself back out toward the opening of that cavity on the rope.

"As I saw the light, I brought him across my body and shoved him up toward the surface. And there was another gentlemen down there, a 19-year-old kid, who was assisting me with this rescue attempt. And he helped the victim there get to an area where the current wasn't so strong and to shallow water, where we could catch our -- he could catch his breath and so forth. I followed."

Begging the question: why was he arrested and not the others? Because he was the one who decided to defy the police orders?

Also notice that apparently the police didn't know there was anyone else in the water. They had no idea he was down there.

Newman tossed back a rescue buoy when EMS hadn't determined that the danger was over.
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Yeah, well:

"By the time most personnel arrived about 3:10 p.m., Abed Duamni of Houston had already been pulled to safety..."

That answers that. The rescue personnel were NOT there at the time he went to save Duamni.

Turns out the guy wasn't drowning after all, but was in an air pocket.
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Oh, now that's just a dishonest way of putting it. The guy lucked out in finding a place with a little bit of air he could get to; it's not like he was in no danger.

(In other news, that article has a pic of the river. They let people swim in that? Glad I'm not their liability carrier.)
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I don't see any problems just with what's in that picture. There are far worse around these parts.
 
CBL4 said:
What a joke.
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It's the police that are the joke here. "All he would have had to do was come across the river." Strange thing to demand of someone you're wanting to get OUT of the river! He wasl aready at the far bank; they told him to swim back across over to them!
 
shanek said:
One guy almost drowning is proof that an area is dangerous enough to be sealed off???
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No, one person actually really-and-truly drowning in April, coupled with the fact that emergency workers have had to respond to that specific location 6 times since then (including once the day before this incident), per the video link at KXAN.
 
Here is my guess as to what happened.

Duamni jumps in and gets in trouble. Someone calls the police. Newman and other jump in and eventually save the guy. About the same time the rescue is over the police show up and it is a confusing scene. They order everyone out and toss Newman a buoy. Newman is familar with the water and refuses the buoy. He catches his breath and swims to back to shore. The police are pissed because he did not follow his orders and because they do not like being regularly called to the area. They assume he is a trouble maker and not a hero. They arrest him without without talking to him or asking anyone why he was in the water.

Once the handcuffs are on, the police find it difficult to admit a mistake. Newman probably acts like a smart ass and the police are mad because he does not "respect their authoritay." Newman goes to jail.

CBL
 
shanek said:
Oh, now that's just a dishonest way of putting it.
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It's not at all, in the context of my claims in this thread. Remember, I've chosen no sides here. I just said that "There's got to be a backstory here a mile high and wide that the story's not telling us about."

Since the initial story, we've got the drowning guy finding a temporary refuge, an assistant on the rescue who was not arrested, a thrown back buoy, a conflict whether EMS was even there at the time of the actual rescue (Newman says yes), and six additional near-drownings. I'd say that my admittedly not-extraordinary hypothesis is working out nicely.

After CBL4, I'll now take a WAG at what happened.

Newman is obssessed with this stretch of the river and spends all his free time there. He has been at war with the University for years over it -- they wanted to close it to swimmers, he successfully caused them to open it. He hates them, they hate him. The facts are demonstrating that the University was right to want to close it. Another confrontation is now brewing. An additional fact -- Mr. Duamni -- is about to manifest itself. Newman goes in to get the guy. EMS shows up. Newman gets the guy. Because the guy's out before EMS hits the water, Newman's thinking this one doesn't "count" toward near-drownings and he's cheezed off at EMS for trying to get involved. He shows them contempt. Basically, he's begging to get arrested, and the police (who, remember, hate him back) are begging for a chance to arrest him. With the two parties in agreement, an arrest is made.

Mr. Newman poked the bear. Maybe the bear shouldn't have reacted. But it's a bear.
 
CBL4 said:
Here is my guess as to what happened.

Duamni jumps in and gets in trouble. Someone calls the police. Newman and other jump in and eventually save the guy. About the same time the rescue is over the police show up and it is a confusing scene. They order everyone out and toss Newman a buoy. Newman is familar with the water and refuses the buoy. He catches his breath and swims to back to shore. The police are pissed because he did not follow his orders and because they do not like being regularly called to the area. They assume he is a trouble maker and not a hero. They arrest him without without talking to him or asking anyone why he was in the water.

Once the handcuffs are on, the police find it difficult to admit a mistake. Newman probably acts like a smart ass and the police are mad because he does not "respect their authoritay." Newman goes to jail.
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That's probably very close.
 
manny said:
It's not at all, in the context of my claims in this thread. Remember, I've chosen no sides here. I just said that "There's got to be a backstory here a mile high and wide that the story's not telling us about."

Since the initial story, we've got the drowning guy finding a temporary refuge, an assistant on the rescue who was not arrested, a thrown back buoy, a conflict whether EMS was even there at the time of the actual rescue (Newman says yes), and six additional near-drownings. I'd say that my admittedly not-extraordinary hypothesis is working out nicely.

After CBL4, I'll now take a WAG at what happened.

Newman is obssessed with this stretch of the river and spends all his free time there. He has been at war with the University for years over it -- they wanted to close it to swimmers, he successfully caused them to open it. He hates them, they hate him. The facts are demonstrating that the University was right to want to close it. Another confrontation is now brewing. An additional fact -- Mr. Duamni -- is about to manifest itself. Newman goes in to get the guy. EMS shows up. Newman gets the guy. Because the guy's out before EMS hits the water, Newman's thinking this one doesn't "count" toward near-drownings and he's cheezed off at EMS for trying to get involved. He shows them contempt. Basically, he's begging to get arrested, and the police (who, remember, hate him back) are begging for a chance to arrest him. With the two parties in agreement, an arrest is made.

Mr. Newman poked the bear. Maybe the bear shouldn't have reacted. But it's a bear.
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And that's just conspiracy-mongering.

CBL4 posited a very reasonable scenario using all of the facts in evidence. You just wildly started making stuff up.
 
CBL4's scenario seems likely. Assuming it is accurate should Newman be able to bring a case against the police for an unjustified arrest?

It seems that exigent circumstances justified ignoring the police when he successfully rescued Duamni . So, ignoring the police under those circumstances looks like no crime.

After the guy was rescued did the police have the right to order anybody to do anything? Maybe if they still believed that there were individuals at risk. But not if they were just pissed at the guy because he had ignored them the first time.

Unrelated digression:
This reminds me of a situation years ago. I was teaching a woman how to drive a car with a manual transmission. The woman was moderately drunk and we got pulled over by the cops. The cops ordered me to stay in the car. This pissed me off, since I didn't think I had committed any crime and as such I didn't think the cops had any right to order me to do anything. The next day, I realized I had been a complete idiot and of course in that situation it was reasonable for the cops to ask me to stay in the car. Fortunately, I more or less stayed calm and the cop ended up taking pity on us and let us go (with the understanding that I would drive). If this happened today, I think the outcome would be far less happy. The woman would have been arrested, she probably would have paid a $5000 fine and possibly another $5000 to a lawyer and would probably have ended up with a restricted (drive to work and back only) drivers license for a year.
 
Thanks for the agreement.

I do think Manny made a good point about Newman's reputation. I said that the police "assume he is a trouble maker." It is likely that they knew he was a trouble maker (from their POV) because of his past actions.

I tend to doubt that he was "begging for arrest" immediately after saving a life. At that point, the hero's high (I mean this is a good way) he must of been experiencing would probably be ruling his actions not his (possible) antipathy to police.

CBL
 
davefoc said:
CBL4's scenario seems likely. Assuming it is accurate should Newman be able to bring a case against the police for an unjustified arrest?
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Any civil case would be dependent on whether or not he's found guilty in the criminal case. I'm assuming he hasn't been tried yet, as the last update merely says he's been bonded.
 
Joshua Korosi said:
Any civil case would be dependent on whether or not he's found guilty in the criminal case.
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Actually, that's not true. There's a different system of evidence and different standard of proof in civil cases. The outcome of the criminal case has nothing to do with it.
 
Joshua Korosi said:
Any civil case would be dependent on whether or not he's found guilty in the criminal case.
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I think if OJ Simpson proved anything, it's that the above is <u>not</u> necessarily the case.
 
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