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satanic sacrafice etc. - does it even exist

There's a certain kind of American Protestant that believes strongly that there are powerful groups of killer Satanists with magical powers. If someone expresses skepticism about it, they get loud and indignant. I think that it feels good to think of one's self as a hero opposed to people who are completely vile and depraved.

--Scott
 
It's totally anecdotal but this thread reminds me of a bizarre story told to me several years ago by a coworker. She was from Namibia and basically she claimed there was a Satanism flap in that country while she was in high school (from her age I assume somewhere around the late 90s.)

She alleged that a public meeting was held in her high school gym, at which a senior South African police detective claimed that hundreds of satanists were practising animal sacrifice in a nearby quarry. He further claimed that the satanists were actively recruiting young people to their cause. From my friend's account this was presented in a very credulous manner, with much fire and brimstone and lock-up-your-teenagers. Malevolent supernatural powers were presumed a priori.

At the time she told me this I was interested enough to look for references to the incident on the web but come up with nothing in the online Namibian and South African press. Likewise I could find no references online to the police officer concerned (whose name I can't now remember).

Perhaps my google-fu was weak or perhaps my friend was just spinning a yarn, but it has always stuck in my mind as odd sort of story to tell in an apparently serious manner. At the least it seems to show the sort of cultural background exists in which this type of story could be viewed as plausible. (Even if she was making the story up my friend seemed to consider it unremarkable and was surprised when her account was questioned.)

In subsequent years I have related the story to several South Africans who accepted it at face value, without being able to confirm any of the specifics.

It just made me wonder how widespread belief in satanic cults is, and how it is perpetuated.
 
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kerikiwi said:
I fail to see how the report is 'pushing a satanic scare'. It is a report on one case. Do you think it should not have been reported?
The claim of satanism was put forward by the prosecution and denied by the defence.It should have been the other way around: in order to establish a defence of insanity, the defence should have been 'pushing' it and the prosecution refuting it.

As for his being a 'former satanist' perhaps he has now got (the right sort of) religion. It seems to happen fairly often when people are convicted, but usually not before. After all, you might just be acquitted without godzelp.
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i'm not quite sure why you are harping on me over this stuff. maybe where you live there wasn't so much of a wave of reports about satanic sacrifices some years back. it's been a while since i'd heard much about such things, but seeing this report again reminded me of the others, which took the same form.

yes, they found a person who was a killer and apparently unstable. i'm not sure where satanism comes in to play, the defense denies it, nonetheless "satanic cult ritual killing" is the headline. what the headline is my point in this case .

the other posters here clearly recall the series of reports of satanic cults that were all the rage some time back. it's just curious to see this resurface. and the article i cited doesn't impress me as good journalism.

it's just that we all agree that crazy people are out there and might commit these unrelated murders, and possibly do so in the name of satan. but that isn't the thing that's being reported about. the reporting suggests a widespread and organized effort from satanic groups to kill people for rituals including all this claptrap about kidnapping pregnant women. it's crazy. there is no way there is a whole network of satanic groups doing all these sacrifices in an organized way. not even in a disorganized way.

my point is that it's totally fabricated, and there is no evidence that this is happening. it reminds me of the razor blade in the halloween candy story. that has never happened. ever. it's a weird fear to put into kids. in this case i have to wonder where this idea came from, and who benefits from keeping people scared of satanic cults. calling the incident a murder by a crazy person is more accurate, and gives the impression it's a one time thing that is over now that the guy is caught. calling it a ritual sacrafice from a satanic cult might suggest that there are more crazed murderers out there hoping to prey on the innocent public and creates an unecessary fear.
 
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Carnivore said:
It's totally anecdotal but this thread reminds me of a bizarre story told to me several years ago by a coworker. She was from Namibia and basically she claimed there was a Satanism flap in that country while she was in high school (from her age I assume somewhere around the late 90s.)

She alleged that a public meeting was held in her high school gym, at which a senior South African police detective claimed that hundreds of satanists were practising animal sacrifice in a nearby quarry. He further claimed that the satanists were actively recruiting young people to their cause. From my friend's account this was presented in a very credulous manner, with much fire and brimstone and lock-up-your-teenagers. Malevolent supernatural powers were presumed a priori.

At the time she told me this I was interested enough to look for references to the incident on the web but come up with nothing in the online Namibian and South African press. Likewise I could find no references online to the police officer concerned (whose name I can't now remember).

Perhaps my google-fu was weak or perhaps my friend was just spinning a yarn, but it has always stuck in my mind as odd sort of story to tell in an apparently serious manner. At the least it seems to show the sort of cultural background exists in which this type of story could be viewed as plausible. (Even if she was making the story up my friend seemed to consider it unremarkable and was surprised when her account was questioned.)

In subsequent years I have related the story to several South Africans who accepted it at face value, without being able to confirm any of the specifics.

It just made me wonder how widespread belief in satanic cults is, and how it is perpetuated.
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Another anecdote...but at my private Christian school I attended here in the US, we were taught similar things. People would give talks in chapel, who were supposed advisors to the FBI. It sort of gave the impression that they were "with the FBI".
If it was a Christian school, I can believe it. I'm also not sure about how definitive the separation of church and state might be in South Africa, too.
She might have gotten mixed up on who the speaker actually was, though.
I guess it might or might not have been an actual police detective.
Mass hysteria is a weird, weird thing.
 
In his book Why People Believe Wierd Things, Shermer devotes a chapter (Chapter 7) to the satanic abuse scare. He likens it to the Salem witch trials.

Steve S.
 
kellyb said:
Another anecdote...but at my private Christian school I attended here in the US, we were taught similar things. People would give talks in chapel, who were supposed advisors to the FBI. It sort of gave the impression that they were "with the FBI".
If it was a Christian school, I can believe it. I'm also not sure about how definitive the separation of church and state might be in South Africa, too.
She might have gotten mixed up on who the speaker actually was, though.
I guess it might or might not have been an actual police detective.
Mass hysteria is a weird, weird thing.
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Wow, that is interesting. In my friend's case I have no idea if it was a Christian school she attended but I do remember that she gave a full name and rank for the cop concerned, also that he was from South Africa speaking in Namibia (Walvis Bay). I could not confirm any of this.

She may have been telling the truth as she knew it, she may have been misremembering, exaggerating or outright lying. In any event, your experience is interesting to me. Do you happen to know if the speakers at your school were paid for their talks or if they were a "public service"? Were they local or did they have to travel to give these talks?

ETA I just did another quick google search for Satanism in Namibia and found this from 2001, and this from 2004. I also discovered that the South African Police Service actually had an Occult Related Crimes Unit between 1992 and 1997 that was set up specifically to fight Satanism in SA. It was headed by Superintendant Korbus Jonker, whose name rings a strong bell with me. I think he is the person my friend referred to in her story. It looks as though there is widespread belief in Satanism in both countries.
 
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Do you happen to know if the speakers at your school were paid for their talks or if they were a "public service"? Were they local or did they have to travel to give these talks?
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I have no idea if they were paid or not, but I got the impression that they traveled.
I think there was a sort of circuit of folks who made their way around the nation giving talks at fundy schools. It was sort of an "Art Bell" sideshow of Evangelical Fundamentalist issues in chapel...the folks who said they were aborted as babies, and survived, rescued from dumpsters by pastors and adopted by them....apostate marketing executives who put subliminal sex messages in alcohol ads before being Born Again...The FBI guys who had the inside scoop on the underground Satanic network, of course...

Good times, good times...

Sorry for the derail, OP...

ETA:
Here's some more of Satanism hysteria in Namibia. Looks like it's one group of chrisians saying some others are 'satanists'.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/universal/universal53.html
http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2005/12/14.html
 
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pounce said:
i'm not quite sure why you are harping on me over this stuff. maybe where you live there wasn't so much of a wave of reports about satanic sacrifices some years back.
...
the reporting suggests a widespread and organized effort from satanic groups to kill people for rituals including all this claptrap about kidnapping pregnant women.
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I am surprised that you interpret my comments as 'harping'. If it is harping, it seems to be mutual!
You are right: down here we have never had any major wave of reports of satanic abuse.
I still don't see how the case you cite can be seen as suggesting a widespread and organised effort from satanic groups. I could find no such implication in the report.
But what do you think of the idea that it is the prosecution that should be denying a satanic connection, and the defence that should be pushing it?
 
kellyb said:
I have no idea if they were paid or not, but I got the impression that they traveled.
I think there was a sort of circuit of folks who made their way around the nation giving talks at fundy schools. It was sort of an "Art Bell" sideshow of Evangelical Fundamentalist issues in chapel...the folks who said they were aborted as babies, and survived, rescued from dumpsters by pastors and adopted by them....apostate marketing executives who put subliminal sex messages in alcohol ads before being Born Again...The FBI guys who had the inside scoop on the underground Satanic network, of course...
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Thank you. it's a bit of an eye opener for me to realize there are semi professional or even state funded Satan-is-among-us types reinforcing this belief.
 
Carnivore said:
Thank you. it's a bit of an eye opener for me to realize there are semi professional or even state funded Satan-is-among-us types reinforcing this belief.
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I *think* that whole thing has gone out of style in the US. But I don't really know for sure.
It might be alive and well in South Africa, though?
 
Nope. It crops up, now and then.

A couple of years back up here near Cleveland, people started finding dead deer in fields and woods, marked with orange spray paint. The news mentioned that some folks thought there was satanic goings-on, but eventually it turned out that the State DNR was marking all the deer they found for removal by sanitary crews.
 
steve s said:
In his book Why People Believe Wierd Things, Shermer devotes a chapter (Chapter 7) to the satanic abuse scare. He likens it to the Salem witch trials.

Steve S.
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Great book. Reading it now.

And yeah, there aren't roving groups of Satanists running around stealing children for sacrifices, but that's not to say there aren't some nutcases who commit murder because they're trying to please the dark lord. The Ricky Casso case springs to mind.
 
Anyone interested in this topic might find these books interesting:
"In Pursuit of Satan" by Robert D Hicks
Witch-children" by Hans Sebald
...both published by Prometheus Books

The website of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation also has tons of info about the devastation wrought by the Satanic panic:
www.fmsfonline.org/
 
Joshua Korosi said:
Nope. It crops up, now and then.

A couple of years back up here near Cleveland, people started finding dead deer in fields and woods, marked with orange spray paint. The news mentioned that some folks thought there was satanic goings-on, but eventually it turned out that the State DNR was marking all the deer they found for removal by sanitary crews.
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I've gotta say, Joshua, that I'm not surprised that people though something strange was going on. Spray-painting a mark on dead deer for removal has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of. It has inspired a Slimey One-Act Play.

A Deer for Adonis by Slimey

Very early morning, the Civil Services Director at the County Sanitation HQ briefs his Crew Leaders about picking up dead deer at local parks. One Crew Leader, a burly, handsome, strapping felow who could be mistaken for a very virile chemist in Arizona, asks for further information.

Crew Leader: Boss, we gotta pick up every dead deer with an orange mark?

Super: Yup, that's right. You guys haul in every deer that has an orange mark on it.

Crew Leader: So what if we find a dead deer with no orange on it?

Super: Leave it there.

Crew Leader: But it will start stinkin', won't it? Someone will call it in and we'll jes have ta go back and get it later.

Super: Yeah. Da paperwerk sez deer with orange. See? It's right here! (Boss shows worker the form that says to pick up dead deer with orange paint.)

Later, on the Crew Leader's truck, the driver asks if there are any "specials" (anything outside the ordinary) that day:

Driver: Yo, Boss, where to first?

Crew Leader: Yah, we gotta stop at the hardware store for some orange paint.

Driver: What fer?

Crew Leader: Jes in case ya hit another deer in the park.

The curtain closes on the sanitation crew during a close-up on the strangely virile and handsome Crew Leader who could have been mistaken for a chemist in Arizona.


So, what have we learned? Right. Dead deer aren't really dead until someone spray-paints them! :confused:
 
kerikiwi said:
You are right: down here we have never had any major wave of reports of satanic abuse.
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Certainly hasn't been widespread, but there definitely have been cases classed as "Satanic abuse", or at least Satanic-related. There was the case in Masterton (aren't they always?) where a couple or family was killed by some raving loonies who were then committed as insane. Another was the case of the Korean minister who killed someone during an "exorcism".

They don't perhaps qualify as "ritual killing", although the Masterton one had that taint.

I'd be pretty confident the rare cases of Satanic-looking crime is merely the work of the insane.
 
The Atheist said:
Certainly hasn't been widespread, but there definitely have been cases classed as "Satanic abuse", or at least Satanic-related. There was the case in Masterton (aren't they always?) where a couple or family was killed by some raving loonies who were then committed as insane. Another was the case of the Korean minister who killed someone during an "exorcism".

They don't perhaps qualify as "ritual killing", although the Masterton one had that taint.

I'd be pretty confident the rare cases of Satanic-looking crime is merely the work of the insane.
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Among others, it could be argued that the Civic Creche (Peter Ellis) case was part of the late 80s/early 90s Satanic hysteria. Some of the children involved, after extensive coaching, made Satanic style claims about things that had happened at the Creche.These claims included child and animal sacrifice, children being hung in cages from the ceiling, children being forced into ovens, adults dancing naked in circles, adults forcing children to fight at knifepoint and ritual abuse in a cemetery and a Masonic lodge.
 
It always struck me as odd that anyone took these ritual abuse claims seriously. Just going from memory here, but I seem to recall children telling of the sacrifice of elephants and giraffes, as well as being defacated upon by a hippopotamus. In some cases, like Martinsville, everyone in town was accused of molestation. Why wasn't anyone willing to say that these accusations were ridiculous at the time?
 
Ah, nothing more amusing and disgusting than seeing humanity's need to justify and glorify the urge to kill.

I've no doubt that there are some deranged people who engage in these activities. Which is sad.
 
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