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Sam Harris

articulett

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I noticed the same "woo" in Sam Harris' end of faith--but I think his thinking has evolved. I just finished reading Christian Nation, and there isn't a trace of his End of Faith woo. He is a cognitive neuroscientist afterall, and it becomes hard to convince oneself that consciousness can exist outside the brain when the ever increasing evidence shows how very brain dependent consciousness is. Moreover, he points out that transcendent experiences are common to all religions and to those experiencing the wonders of science and art--they are not evidence of anything supernatural as wonderous as they are. (I will add that transcendent experiences are also found in those having certain types of seizures...as well as those imbibing in hallucinogenic substances.) He also rants against the notion of "ensoulment" that cripples scientific research on stem cells.

His review of Francis Collins' book on this website http://richarddawkins.net ( http://richarddawkins.net/mainPage.php?bodyPage=article_body.php&id=166 ) leads me to believe he has put the death knell in any woo leanings...

I think Mr. Harris' thinking may have evolved since he first published End of Faith and I hope any coolness he projects towards Randi has evaporated as well. They make wonderful allies in the battle against scientific ignorance and in the efforts for building governing bodies and educational systems that put facts before faith. It takes some fortitude to dismantle this sacred heiffer of "faith", and I am grateful for all efforts in the battle.
 
I just finished reading his End of Faith book. I admit it started well with his dissection of faith and beliefs but it ended badly for me when he started to dabble in spirtualism. It actually made me worried about monotheistic religions that preach heaven and salvation if one follows the teachings, as here lies the root of Islamic terrorism as well as Christian/Catholic extremism.
 
The woo at the end makes the book entirely hypocritical. The man rants for hundreds of pages about the dangers of believing without evidence because you want something to be true, then proceeds to do exactly that. He laughs off notions that are "patently silly", but falls for this ridiculous bullsh*t hook line and sinker.
 
Just spent 2 hours reading other stuff on butterfliesandwheels; looks to be a great site. Especially about goings-on in India where Hindu religious ideas are being put into textbooks much as Intelligent Design desires to be in the USA.
 
I'm still busy reading that link ( I read slow ), but it's pretty damning stuff.
I am also reading TeOF but am only half way. I really enjoy his clear reasoning, but I just don't know enough about Islam and history to trust his take on the situation.
 
I wanted to read the end of faith after seeing this man on "The god who wasn't there." But you guys say it's a bad read??? Damn, sounded very interesting :(
 
Plastictowel said:
I wanted to read the end of faith after seeing this man on "The god who wasn't there." But you guys say it's a bad read??? Damn, sounded very interesting :(
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I enjoyed the book. I've read several works on Islam, by former Muslims, Islamic scholars, historians, and an apologist. I didn't see anything in the book that contradicted what I've been reading or made me think that he was at odds with my other sources. He did go just a bit off on the Eastern stuff, but I don't think that negates the entire book.
 
I don't know much about eastern religion beyond that the government tells me rofl, would I still enjoy the book and learn about eastern culture, or should I have a prior understanding before jumping in?
 
Plastictowel said:
I don't know much about eastern religion beyond that the government tells me rofl, would I still enjoy the book and learn about eastern culture, or should I have a prior understanding before jumping in?
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Hmm, I just jumped in, but I didn't realize before I bought it that there was anything about 'spirituality' beforehand. I bought it based on the cover description.
 
What sense does it cover "spirituality?"

Again I really wanted to read this, but you guys are making it sound horrible...
 
I have still not finished it, but from what I have read and the critiques I have read, he is trying to argue for a Rational investigation into the "Mystical Experience".

Please go read the link to butterfliesandwheels I posted above to clear that all up.

I would say the book is still worth a read for it's very clear views on Faith and Religion.

I must say that it has scared me. I do doubt a lot of what he says and there are some problem areas involving his view on drugs that make me wonder if I was being deceived by words in the sections on Christianity and Islam.
So, it's actually hard work to read with an open mind and to keep a list of the points that need checking later!

The God Delusion is on its way and I will be able to compare Dawkin's approach to Harris'.

I really need to know more about the history of Religion and the Middle East. Any good book refs?
 
I have read the End of Faith, the God Delusion and Breaking the Spell.

In my opinion, reports of Sam Harris' love with the woo are highly exaggerated. He explores eastern mysticism much the same way Dennett explores the belief in Belief. Keep in mind that many people in our skeptical circle are believers and/or deists in some form.

I for one would enjoy hearing more from Sam directly on this topic. My sense is that some people are interpreting the latter pages of his books a little to literally. Hopefully the JREF can bring him on board as a speaker.

Unfortunately I don't have my copy of End of Faith in Kabul with me so I can't revisit the pages in question. But in no way does this brief discussion near the end discredit the powerful and important work of the preceding 220+ pages.

(I found the God Delusion to be even a more powerful read!)

-AH.
 
What are his comments on drugs? Is it like a liberal political thing? or something...

Yeah I wanted his book, but I'm tempted to get Dawkins in favor of it..cause well..he's mother f-ing Dawkins.
 
Plastictowel said:
What sense does it cover "spirituality?"

Again I really wanted to read this, but you guys are making it sound horrible...
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see Antiquehunter's comments, I agree with those. I enjoyed the book, I didn't feel that the thrust of the book was related to his flirtations with anything woo. To tell the truth, I didn't even take note of it until I started reading the comments on the forum. It wasn't horrible. Harris isn't 100% consistant - so what? Glean what you will from his writings.
 
Donn said:
I really need to know more about the history of Religion and the Middle East. Any good book refs?
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I've read, among others, Ibn Warraq's "Why I am not a Muslim" and "The Sword of the Prophet: History, Theology, Impact on the World" by Serge Trifkovic, and "Islam" by Karen Armstrong.

Warraq delves into the history, politics, and all the splinter groups of Islam, and his book is pre- 9/11; Trifkovic has a lot of historical background from a non-Muslim and edited post 9/11; Armstrong is a writer on comparative theology who is a bit of an apologist for Islam. I found her book the least informative, but wanted to get some different viewpoints.
 
Geek Goddess said:
Harris isn't 100% consistant - so what? Glean what you will from his writings.
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Weeeeelllll. I dunno. In a book of this nature and with his very clear stance, the author should be as stern with his own assumptions and beliefs.
He is excluding Faith and Religion and God from the set of "stuff that's real" and the reasons for exluding them are good. Then he throws reincarnation and mystical experiences and a dash of Sheldrake back into the set! It's physician heal thyself really.

Geek Goddess said:
I've read, among others, Ibn Warraq's "Why I am not a Muslim" and "The Sword of the Prophet: History, Theology, Impact on the World" by Serge Trifkovic, and "Islam" by Karen Armstrong.
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Thanks! I will see what I can get my hands on.

What do you feel about Harris' extreme views on Islam? Are they really all just drones waiting to invade the world and kill or convert everyone? Are they really that motivated by the literal words of their Faith?

It sounds to me like a whole dollop of human nature has been left out. Stuff like: energy, time, concern, motivation, health, money, compassion, greed.
I mean a fired-up literal Koran-toting Muslim with no time and three kids to feed might just not have it in him to come here and convert my ass.
 
Donn said:
Weeeeelllll. I dunno. In a book of this nature and with his very clear stance, the author should be as stern with his own assumptions and beliefs.
He is excluding Faith and Religion and God from the set of "stuff that's real" and the reasons for exluding them are good. Then he throws reincarnation and mystical experiences and a dash of Sheldrake back into the set! It's physician heal thyself really.

Thanks! I will see what I can get my hands on.

What do you feel about Harris' extreme views on Islam? Are they really all just drones waiting to invade the world and kill or convert everyone? Are they really that motivated by the literal words of their Faith?
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I won't disagree with your point. However, if I held everyone to be internally consistent, I might as well head to the cave. I'm including myself on that. I think he had some good information, and I think he was misguided (spelled 'wrong') on some things. I would still recommend his book to people, especially those who are smart enough to not swallow everything they read wholesale.

As for his 'extreme' views - I dunno. I know few Muslims, and only a couple that I know very well and have talked religion with them. They are American (naturalized) citizens, were from India, and go about their lives pretty much like I do. I met Shafiq, for instance, in 1978, and he'd been in the US several years prior to that. He has very Americanized kids, but his daughter, who was ranked near the top in her high school class and was a cheerleader, wasn't allowed to go off to college and be away from her family, and attended a community college. Her younger brothers were allowed to go (this was in late 90s, BTW). He likes living in America, but told me that he believed that 'eventually' Islam would overtake the US and the country would be converted, willingly or unwillingly. In my industry, I run across a lot of people who have lived in the Middle East, even in Saudi Arabia, some recently, some 20 years ago. In my obviously limited and unscientific poll, they are uniformly concerned - worried, even. One of my contractors, who is a self-declared 'left wing liberal' and lived in the Middle East for about 15 years, SHOCKED me by saying that he felt it was going to be 'us against them' some day and that they only way we would win was by dropping some large bombs and wiping out about 70% of them. I've not read the Koran, just a lot of excerpts from it, but it's enough to worry me. My coworkers who've read it agree. Non-secularized Muslims don't segregate their religion from their every day life and politics like most Westerners do (if we're religious at all), and from what I've been reading (Warraq et al), those who claim that there are 'extremists' versus 'moderates' are not being genuine. Trifkovic has some good explanations of the Medinan vs Meccan portions of the Koran, how they evolved, the abbrogation of the 'Satanic verses' and what that means when interpreting what the Koran is, in the end, telling its adherants. I'd be interested in what you think after reading those two books.

One quote I read recently "Islam is inconsolable in its desolation" was written by a Muslim in a book I have at home but have just not been able to wade through because of the writing style. I can't tell you the name or author (it's at home, and I'm *supposed* to be working right now), but it is by a practicing Muslim who is defending the religion, philosophy, politics, etc. (It was originally written in French, and if you're interested in the title PM me and I'll find it). The anger felt by Muslims is somewhat based on the fact that, during the first 1000 years of its history, it conquered on a continual, sustained basis - meeting resistance but always overcoming. They felt - we must be right, Allah must be on our side, because look at all we have done. They were finally stopped, even pushed back slightly (think Spain), and that failure of their 'rightness' to continue unceasing expansion, as Mohammed promised them, has been hard to reconcile with their belief. I'm going to try to read this book, because I want to accumulate a variety of opinions.
 
Appreciate your input.

I am going to have to go away and read and learn.

I never knew about this expansionist side to Islam, I always figured it was just "religion" like any other: mindless, ritual, cultural, but not real.
 
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