tonygraham
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Anybody know if there are any behavioural/psychological effects of large regular intakes of salt in children? Can't find much on the net.
salt overdose
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Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
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I have heard of a number of sodium-induced mental problems, including psycosis and ADD (course, what doesn't cause that).
It increases the rate at which neurons fire, thus putting the bosy into a sort of 'overdrive', at least from what I have heard.
It increases the rate at which neurons fire, thus putting the bosy into a sort of 'overdrive', at least from what I have heard.
What is the specific concern? Do you have a child that you think is getting too much salt and acting weird (or the like)? How much salt are we talking about here?
I can say this, though. Generally speaking salt is not a huge problem unless you have some sort of underlying kidney or endocrine disorder. Salt consumption in a healthy person tends to be self-limiting. If you eat excess salt, your body dumps it out via the kidney. If you get to the point where you eat way too much salt at one sitting, you will simply vomit. Of course (as Paul's post points out), excess salt will cause a temporary increase in your serum osmolality and this will, by acting on the hypothalamus, stimulate your thirst center. A series of other physiological drives will then kick in to increase the output of salt in the urine. Again, provided there are no other underlying problems, usually your body takes care of excess salt ingestion before it becomes problematic.
If you have a more specific concern (behavior or otherwise) with a child, I'd recommend seeing a pediatrician who will be able to evaluate the child and more accurately diagnose what's going on.
-TT
I can say this, though. Generally speaking salt is not a huge problem unless you have some sort of underlying kidney or endocrine disorder. Salt consumption in a healthy person tends to be self-limiting. If you eat excess salt, your body dumps it out via the kidney. If you get to the point where you eat way too much salt at one sitting, you will simply vomit. Of course (as Paul's post points out), excess salt will cause a temporary increase in your serum osmolality and this will, by acting on the hypothalamus, stimulate your thirst center. A series of other physiological drives will then kick in to increase the output of salt in the urine. Again, provided there are no other underlying problems, usually your body takes care of excess salt ingestion before it becomes problematic.
If you have a more specific concern (behavior or otherwise) with a child, I'd recommend seeing a pediatrician who will be able to evaluate the child and more accurately diagnose what's going on.
-TT
Rolfe
Adult human female
Repeat, if you have a specific concern about a specific child, take him, her or it to the doctor.
Salt poisoning is mainly a manifestation of water deprivation. The normal ADULT kidney can excrete large amounts of excess salt so long as the individual is free to ingest the large amounts of water needed to do the job. (Salty food makes you thirsty. Three guesses why pubs sell mainly crisps and salted peanuts. And you only need one of them.)
Juvenile kidneys aren't so well equipped to do this. So young children can come to real harm.
One very nasty case which occurred some time ago was where a young couple bought a house which had had a water softening system installed. Neither they nor anybody else enquired too closely exactly how this worked. In fact by law water softeners can't be installed to drinking water taps, the main drinking tap in the kitchen shouldn't be connected to the system. In this house the law had been broken by the installers of the system, at the time of the previous occupants, and the main tap was in the system. The mother used this water to make up the bottle-feed mixture for her new baby. The water was loaded with salt which the baby couldn't cope with, and it died.
You can't be too careful.
Rolfe.
Salt poisoning is mainly a manifestation of water deprivation. The normal ADULT kidney can excrete large amounts of excess salt so long as the individual is free to ingest the large amounts of water needed to do the job. (Salty food makes you thirsty. Three guesses why pubs sell mainly crisps and salted peanuts. And you only need one of them.)
Juvenile kidneys aren't so well equipped to do this. So young children can come to real harm.
One very nasty case which occurred some time ago was where a young couple bought a house which had had a water softening system installed. Neither they nor anybody else enquired too closely exactly how this worked. In fact by law water softeners can't be installed to drinking water taps, the main drinking tap in the kitchen shouldn't be connected to the system. In this house the law had been broken by the installers of the system, at the time of the previous occupants, and the main tap was in the system. The mother used this water to make up the bottle-feed mixture for her new baby. The water was loaded with salt which the baby couldn't cope with, and it died.
You can't be too careful.
Rolfe.
Good points, Rolfe. Thanks!
I'm always concerned when I hear about perceived "behavioral disturbances" in children and parents (or aunts, or uncles, or friends) who try to potentially investigate and diagnose on their own. Best bet, if there's a concern (especially with potential cases of salt ovedose) is to seek the opinion of a physician firsthand.
If, OTOH, this was just an academic question, hopefully your question has been answered. If not, ask on!
-TT
I'm always concerned when I hear about perceived "behavioral disturbances" in children and parents (or aunts, or uncles, or friends) who try to potentially investigate and diagnose on their own. Best bet, if there's a concern (especially with potential cases of salt ovedose) is to seek the opinion of a physician firsthand.
If, OTOH, this was just an academic question, hopefully your question has been answered. If not, ask on!
-TT
tonygraham
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Sorry, should have made the context more clear. I've been working with two ADHD kids and was informed by other kids that they both put huge amounts of salt (and I mean huge) on their food. It just set me wondering.
tonygraham
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And thanks for the replies, guys
tonygraham said:
This is the only (very small) study I could find that attempted to correlate the two:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9754697&dopt=Abstract
The study centered on neuropeptide-Y levels, a more recently discovered protein thought to be released with catecholamines (i.e., epinephrine and norepinephrine) from sympathetic neurons, and aberrant levels in children with ADHD.
The results of this study, though, would kind of counter the excess salt intake you have heard about. The reason why this is the case is because the children in this study drank more water, but "drinking was inversely related to circulating sodium" (i.e., the lower the sodium level, the more they drank). If it were directly correlated (i.e., the higher the sodium, the more they drank), then your observation would carry more weight.
Alternatively (and interstingly), however, could be an alternate hypothesis that, due to the increased thirst drive (called "polydipsia") perhaps somehow related to the underlying ADHD disease which results in an excessive intake of water, the children may be driven to consume larger amounts of sodium in an attempt to correct the plasma imbalance. Also, there is a condition called "pica" where children (and sometimes adults) consume large amounts of non-nutrient substances (such as ice, dirt, etc.). This is very common, for example, in iron deficiency as well as other psychiatric disorders.
In other words, you may be on to something here. All great scientific breakthroughs start with careful observation. I'll keep my eye on this when I start my psych rotation (in a few months) and see if anyone else is familiar with this.
-TT
tonygraham
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I had wondered whether there may be some sort of sodium deficiency they were addressing, either related to the condition itself, or related to the ritalin they both take.
Eos of the Eons
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I heard that if you took down 3/4 cup of salt at one time, you'd die. Anyone seen a study?
My son has tourettes and 50% of boys with Tourettes act like ADHD kids. He doesn't technically have ADHD (stimulants really make him nuts and overreactive and paranoid-he's on an anti-psychotic and an antidepressant), but with his disorder he doesn't show any inclincation to use salt on his food. He also doesn't go for chips over a slushie or anything either.
My son has tourettes and 50% of boys with Tourettes act like ADHD kids. He doesn't technically have ADHD (stimulants really make him nuts and overreactive and paranoid-he's on an anti-psychotic and an antidepressant), but with his disorder he doesn't show any inclincation to use salt on his food. He also doesn't go for chips over a slushie or anything either.
Eos of the Eons said:
You'd vomit.
Eos of the Eons said:
I can't imagine that this would be an easy protocol to get through an Institutional Review Board...
"We're going to give a potentially lethal dose of sodium chloride to patients to see what will happen."
-TT
Eos of the Eons
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LOL!
I'm sure I couldn't get a tablespoon of salt down alone without vomitting.
I think it had to do with how much would so severely dehydrate you that you would die...a mathematical thing. X amount of salt will dry you up Y amount equalling death...
I don't think anyone has ever been reported "dead by lethal dose of sodium chloride"
What if they injected it as a very salty saline?
I'm sure I couldn't get a tablespoon of salt down alone without vomitting.
I think it had to do with how much would so severely dehydrate you that you would die...a mathematical thing. X amount of salt will dry you up Y amount equalling death...
I don't think anyone has ever been reported "dead by lethal dose of sodium chloride"
What if they injected it as a very salty saline?
Rolfe
Adult human female
I can't find the reference, but there was a case quite recently of a mother being convicted of harming a disabled child by either feeding or injecting large amounts of salt. I don't think the child died, but I think she may have been left brain damaged.Eos of the Eons said:I don't think anyone has ever been reported "dead by lethal dose of sodium chloride"
What if they injected it as a very salty saline?
Anybody got a link to what I'm talking about?
Rolfe.
Jaggy Bunnet
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Rolfe said:
Unfortunately, you are correct:
http://www.news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=875&id=818952003
And there is another case pending:
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/special_packages/telecom/6524478.htm
And an accidental death case involving salt overdose - for small babies the lethal amount is tiny. The parents in this case fed their baby on liquidised Ready Brek (a porridge like breakfast cereal) instead of baby food. The salt in the cereal was enough to kill the baby:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/404667.stm
Eos of the Eons
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/404667.stm
It's safest to wait until the baby is 5 1/2 to 6 months old before introducing non salted solids like banana or rice cereal. Kids can't digest the junk before then anyway.
Even cow's milk has too much salt for kids under 6 months old.
Learn a little before you have a kid, sigh. It was just an accident, but I've even heard of idiots giving their babies only coffee creamer. Kid died of malnutrition. Duh.
Just another reason to push breastfeeding hey... Breast feed, breast feed, breast feed. Good for a baby's brain all the way. Why do even I, who nursed all three of her kids, still get a little nervous around a breast feeding mom (not knowing where to put my eyes)? Weird. Darn societal hang ups.
Far as we've seen, salt can be deadly, but hardly causes hyperactivity to be affected.
It's safest to wait until the baby is 5 1/2 to 6 months old before introducing non salted solids like banana or rice cereal. Kids can't digest the junk before then anyway.
Even cow's milk has too much salt for kids under 6 months old.
Learn a little before you have a kid, sigh. It was just an accident, but I've even heard of idiots giving their babies only coffee creamer. Kid died of malnutrition. Duh.
Just another reason to push breastfeeding hey...
Breast feed, breast feed, breast feed. Good for a baby's brain all the way. Why do even I, who nursed all three of her kids, still get a little nervous around a breast feeding mom (not knowing where to put my eyes)? Weird. Darn societal hang ups.Far as we've seen, salt can be deadly, but hardly causes hyperactivity to be affected.