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Ritual abuse convictions in the UK... real, or another hoax?

Charlie Wilkes

Illuminator
Charlie Wilkes
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
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4,177
I'm looking at this story, wondering what is going on...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/12/14/pagans-jack-kemp-pete-petrauske-sex-abuse_n_2303248.html

On the surface, it looks like a lot of the US daycare/satanic panic cases of the 1980s.

From the article:

Mr Beal said: "(One victim) was taken to a house where pagans were present, Jack Kemp was present and 'German Pete' (Petrauske) was also there.

"She was given alcohol, told to dance in front of the camera, and take her clothes off."

When Petrauske was arrested last year, detectives discovered daggers, sheets, candles and a mask, the court heard.

OK, so they caught him red-handed with sheets and candles. I'm reminded of the Kelly Michaels case, in which one allegation was that she smeared peanut butter on naked toddlers. When they went to the school to check it out, sure enough, they found peanut butter in the lunch room... What more proof could anyone want? Don't make me go back, Mommy!

http://awfullibrarybooks.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/dont-make-me-go-back-mommy3.jpg

The major difference in this case is that the witnesses against these guys are now adults, describing something they say happened many decades ago.

So, I don't know what to think.
 
It's well known that videotaping naked underage girls is an integral part of traditional pagan rituals. :)

But that's the only example given of the alleged crimes (and where's the video now?), no mention of any actual pagan rituals in the article. Just an assertion that they have been given lengthy jail sentences for their part in "ritualistic, sickening" sex abuse of young girls. If those men are guilty, I doubt their crimes have any basis in their pagan beliefs.
 
Haven't seen the evidence that was presented at the trial, but nothing in the article makes me particularly skeptical of the verdict.
 
Puppycow said:
Haven't seen the evidence that was presented at the trial, but nothing in the article makes me particularly skeptical of the verdict.
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I'm very skeptical, because a wave of fraudulent cases sounding very much like this one swept through the US in the 1980s. Large numbers of innocent people were convicted of crimes that never happened.
 
Were "recovered memories" used in the trial?

Are there public transcripts like there are for US trials?
 
I'm skeptical of any "satanic ritual abuse" stories, and am proactive in combatting "recovered memory therapy".

However, statements like this make me wonder if this is an example of ritualisitic child abuse actually occurring:

(From the article in the OP) "The court heard Kemp videoed the abuse, but also took part in the assaults, along with friends Solheim and Stan Pirie - a notorious paedophile who died in jail following his conviction for sex abuse in the mid-2000s."

Knowing the slackness of much journalism, does this actually mean that the court saw videos of crimes made by the accused?

We need to look into other reports of this story...

Professor Yaffle posted a link to another report in my "Dr Phil / Satanic Ritual Abuse" thread in Gen Skep early last week.

That doesn't mention videos at all, and neither do several I've found through Google News.

However, neither do they mention that the memories of the abuse were "recovered" through hypnosis or therapy, which is significant.
 
Orphia Nay said:
I'm skeptical of any "satanic ritual abuse" stories, and am proactive in combatting "recovered memory therapy".

However, statements like this make me wonder if this is an example of ritualisitic child abuse actually occurring:

(From the article in the OP) "The court heard Kemp videoed the abuse, but also took part in the assaults, along with friends Solheim and Stan Pirie - a notorious paedophile who died in jail following his conviction for sex abuse in the mid-2000s."

Knowing the slackness of much journalism, does this actually mean that the court saw videos of crimes made by the accused?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't think so. If the tapes were found, there'd be a big deal made about them by the media. More likely the court heard testimony from the victims that the assaults were videotaped. That doesn't mean that the tapes were ever found by authorities, or even that the tapes still exist.

Personally, I'm skeptical that this is an example of ritualistic child abuse. I'm inclined to believe that if the abuse took place (no opinion either way on that) then it would most likely be regular child abuse, and that the accusations of it being part of some kind of pagan ritual are probably nothing more than media hyperbole inspired by reports of the defendants pagan beliefs.
 
Orphia Nay said:
I'm skeptical of any "satanic ritual abuse" stories, and am proactive in combatting "recovered memory therapy".

However, statements like this make me wonder if this is an example of ritualisitic child abuse actually occurring:

(From the article in the OP) "The court heard Kemp videoed the abuse, but also took part in the assaults, along with friends Solheim and Stan Pirie - a notorious paedophile who died in jail following his conviction for sex abuse in the mid-2000s."

Knowing the slackness of much journalism, does this actually mean that the court saw videos of crimes made by the accused?

We need to look into other reports of this story...

Professor Yaffle posted a link to another report in my "Dr Phil / Satanic Ritual Abuse" thread in Gen Skep early last week.

That doesn't mention videos at all, and neither do several I've found through Google News.

However, neither do they mention that the memories of the abuse were "recovered" through hypnosis or therapy, which is significant.
Click to expand...

Allegations of photos, videos, etc. were central to the McMartin case and other US ritual abuse prosecutions. They afforded a believable reason why women in their 50s, who had raised families of their own, would suddenly begin to abuse dozens of other people's kids.

The problem was, none of the alleged photos ever surfaced. It doesn't look like they have in Cornwall, either.
 
I'm trying to find more information about this. The story that I'm piecing together is that one of the defendants, Petrauske, is without a doubt involved in paganism. But women who participated with him say that nudity and child abuse were never part of the rituals.

The other defendand, Kemp, says he has never been involved in paganism, but he was arrested for other, unspecified sexual misconduct last year. Rumors began to circulate in the community, and two women came forward to describe ritual abuse that they say occurred when they were small children.

What is not clear is what relationship Petrauske and Kemp have with each other or with their alleged victims. Who brought these small children to the pagan rituals where they were supposedly abused?

This case is of course a gift for the SRA/recovered memory/DID crowd, and I notice they are citing it in the Amazon discussion.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
This case is of course a gift for the SRA/recovered memory/DID crowd, and I notice they are citing it in the Amazon discussion.
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That's not a good enough reason to dismiss it; especially considering that the case involves neither satanism, recovered memory, nor DID.
 
I'm quite capable of believing that there are many people who will do all kinds of nasty and perverted things with their children.

Whether or not the people on trial here are guilty, I have no idea.

In fact, it really makes no difference whether or not there have been other cases in which the wrong verdict was arrived at. This case, like all others, needs to be judged on its individual merits and shouldn't be made a hobby horse of by either the "SLA crowd" or the "anti-SLA crowd".

IMHO
 
I would suggest (as the comment by mwolf2001 on the article also states) what you have is a group of men, attracted to young girls, who happened to hit on the idea of using the lure and perceived coolness of 'paganism' (and possibly accompanied by much talk of the power of the feminine, the high status of women, the Earth Mother, etc.) to attract said young girls.


ETA
Insofar as 'ritualistic abuse' is concerned, isn't that essentially a slightly more sophisticated version of the threat of "if you tell then you/daddy/mummy/Uncle Dave will have to go to prison", except using God or the Devil or somesuch as the ultimate sanction on impressionable minds?
 
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Checkmite said:
That's not a good enough reason to dismiss it; especially considering that the case involves neither satanism, recovered memory, nor DID.
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The allegations mirror those of many discredited US cases. But you're right, that is not a good enough reason to dismiss this as a hoax. One of the defendants was involved in paganism... but was he involved in the ritual abuse of children?

I don't put much stock in the Daily Mail, but this article has some photos:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...icted-abusing-children-pagan-sex-rituals.html

In one of the photos, Petrauske is holding a star inside a circle, just like the one shown in this illustration from an infamous "children's book" about satanic ritual abuse:

dont-make-me-go-back-mommy3.jpg
 
I'd say it's imprudent to compare this case to the satanic panic cases of the late 20th in the US. The only similarity seems to be the suggestion of a "ritualistic" element; nearly every other detail about the case is of a completely different character - a select small number of perpetrators (one of whom has independently been found a sex offender already); a restricted set of victims who never needed to "recover" the memories and never implicated other victims as being involved. No bizarre stories of vast group orgies involving all of the local pillars of the community and a few visiting celebrities. No basements, no secret rooms, no satanism. No brainwashing - the victims were just given rewards in exchange for not telling anybody.

As for the "paganism" - strictly speaking, there's no consolidated authoritative source on what is or is not "traditional pagan practice"; there have been some books written, giving their individual authors' opinions on what proper paganism should be; however, quite literally anyone can call himself a pagan, invent rituals out of whole cloth, and call them "pagan rituals". It's entirely likely that these individuals were pedophiles who simply decided to create a "ritual" to make it more exciting or add the pretense of propriety to what they were doing. It's equally likely that there was nothing pagan about the abuse at all; that it was run-of-the-mill child molestation, but the perpetrators happened to be pagan and so had pagan "regalia" at the house as a result, and that the young victims noticed these unusual items and associated them with their abuse.

If anything, this case already has one up on the entirety of the satanic panic cases by virtue of having a perpetrator who, it turns out, actually did have the alleged ritual candles, daggers, and masks at hand (again, whether or not they were used during the abuse).
 
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My main interest is in crime, and a lot of things about this story arouse my suspicion. The "facts" of the story come mostly from public authorities, and what is notable is what they are not saying.

- There's no information about a relationship between Petrauske and his co-defendant Kemp, and that is something the authorities would be talking about if there was a close relationship.

- There's no information about a relationship between either defendant and their accusers, and again the prosecutor would be stressing that if a known relationship existed. Who procured these 5-year-olds for the defendants? Were the parents of the accusers involved?
 
Good questions both.

As an American, reading stories about convictions in UK courts can be a little frustrating; had it been a US trial, all of this would've been reported on in detail.
 
marplots said:
Were "recovered memories" used in the trial?
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It does not appear so; it would almost certainly have been reported if so

marplots said:
Are there public transcripts like there are for US trials?
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Not generally, no. Cases involving children or involving sexual abuse tend to have reporting restrictions, which means the press are limited as to what they can report. This is done to protect the people involved, and the restrictions are only likely to be lifted if there is a compelling reason (not just "public interest"). Filming and photography in UK courts is illegal, so any pictures from courts are always drawings.
 
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