RFK: Are We Sure?

I just cannot believe that a person can be hypnotized into shooting someone. I'm sorry if that's an "argument from incredulity" but I can't see it working like that.
 
bynmdsue said:
I just cannot believe that a person can be hypnotized into shooting someone. I'm sorry if that's an "argument from incredulity" but I can't see it working like that.
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Since people can place the gun in his hand at the shooting and have him firing shots, my best guess is that this is a desperate, hail mary pass, way to get him off the hook and be free. If they went the insanity root, he would be under observation the rest of his life. If he actually admitted to having a part but not the only shooter, he would probably get credit for time served but would be in the Casey Anthony/O.J. Simpson case of guilt by public and that's if his lawyers could prove he didn't fire the fatal shot.

It's a one in a million shot anyway, they don't have anything to lose.
 
If the fatal bullet was fired by a bodyguard or policeman reacting to Sirhan then Sirhan is still culpable for RFK's death.

And the audio "evidence" just isn't enough for me, some experts say there's 13 shots on the tape but some say only 8. Who to believe? So then we move onto eyewitnesses ... er, better not. Physical evidence? AFAIK it supports Sirhan as the shooter unless someone can put me some knowledge?
 
bynmdsue said:
If the fatal bullet was fired by a bodyguard or policeman reacting to Sirhan then Sirhan is still culpable for RFK's death.

And the audio "evidence" just isn't enough for me, some experts say there's 13 shots on the tape but some say only 8. Who to believe? So then we move onto eyewitnesses ... er, better not. Physical evidence? AFAIK it supports Sirhan as the shooter unless someone can put me some knowledge?
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I'll concede the first point here.

The second point brings up the crux of the case.

The strongest piece of evidence that Sirhan can hang his hat on is the fatal shot as described in the autopsy report, but in order to prove it they would have to have all the eyewitness testimony to conclude that Sirhan never got behind or beside Kennedy to get close enough to shoot from point blank range. It's an iffy proposition. Noguchi did good work for years and there really should be no doubt on how he determined the cause of death.

In regards to the audio tape, it matters where that recorder was in the timeline of events. We saw the HSCA get fooled on the stuck mike at the Trade-Mart in Dallas. In this case we have a higher quality of recording device, a cassette rather than a dictophone case, but unless there is film evidence of the reporter being exactly where some have claimed him to be, then those impulses or sounds may not be shots. It could very well be 13 shots, or it could be wrong.

There is no film record of the actual shooting. We have Gordon West's audio recording of Sirhan's apprehension, but IIRC no shots of him firing are on that tape.

The place was a madhouse. An overcrowded hallway on a hot night that saw shots. There was no real security. There was very little secured. LAPD weren't even in the building.

Press photographers were there and took shots of the aftermath and investigation. There has always been some question as whether 8 shots were fired and how many bullets could be accounted for in walls, doorframes, people, or elsewhere.

Sirhan got caught with a fired gun in his hand. He's not innocent here.

The problem is he has some plasuible outs. I think the odds are 70/30 that it's just him. I'd go with a 20% chance that the polka-dot girl seen coming out and another male are in on it. Eyewitnesses testified that she bragged about shooting RFK including campaign volunteers and others, yet nothing solid has come out since then.

The security guard shooting after seeing Sirhan shooting, I'll give that a 10% chance. It would explain a head shot and the guard was no Kennedy fan, but the thought of taking a potshot at RFK out of the blue because someone else is shooting seems a bit far-etched. Yet, truth is stranger than fiction.

Having such a public crime scene with such a public figure would give even the best police department fits on doing an absolutely correct and through investigation. We know that the LAPD might not fit that description. I'm sure based on what law enforcement learned based on Dallas that they were in over their heads. They also knew they had Sirhan wrapped right up and the chances of not getting a conviction were nearly none.

They got a lot of it right, the question is did they get everything right. As time goes by, it looks better and better for them.
 
Well, hold on. I was just meant if the bodygurd was trying to shoot Sirhan and accidentally hit RFK then Sirhan would still be culpable. If he on the other hand thought "Hey this is a great time to do away with RFK, why not?" then it's all on him. So yeah that seems very unlikely but people have done stranger things I guess.

How far away was Sirhan from RFK? 3 ft.? 4? 5? That may be where his feet were but I assume he had his arm extended when firing which would close alot of that gap. And RFK isn't strapped to a handtruck like Hannibal Lecter either. He's shaking hands and saying hello and reacting to people calling his name...

I'm just having a hard time with the whole hypnosis thing. It sounds like a nice "get out of jail free" deal, a "oh, I didn't know what I was doing, I'm not responsible."

Has Sirhan ever brought up the girl in the polka dot dress?
 
bynmdsue said:
Well, hold on. I was just meant if the bodygurd was trying to shoot Sirhan and accidentally hit RFK then Sirhan would still be culpable. If he on the other hand thought "Hey this is a great time to do away with RFK, why not?" then it's all on him. So yeah that seems very unlikely but people have done stranger things I guess.

How far away was Sirhan from RFK? 3 ft.? 4? 5? That may be where his feet were but I assume he had his arm extended when firing which would close alot of that gap. And RFK isn't strapped to a handtruck like Hannibal Lecter either. He's shaking hands and saying hello and reacting to people calling his name...

I'm just having a hard time with the whole hypnosis thing. It sounds like a nice "get out of jail free" deal, a "oh, I didn't know what I was doing, I'm not responsible."

Has Sirhan ever brought up the girl in the polka dot dress?
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I think we agree on quite a bit of this.

Regarding the head shot, I've never heard or read an eyewitness say he fired from ear level but, as you pointed out, eyewitness testimony is unreliable. There's no Zapruder or Nix film, nor Moorman or Altgens photo of the shooting to verify anything. Eyewitness testimony is what they had to go with.

The hypnosis thing is crap. In '69, his lawyers had to try not to get him fried. No way in hell they try that defense then. Even so, he received a death sentence.

Sirhan has never mentioned her or anyone else, but he's always claimed not to remember the shooting either. If he's claiming his complete innocence, he can't mention her as it would implicate him.
 
vtbub said:
Someone else besides Robert want to offer at least a realistic theory?
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I'll give it a go. Sirhan was looking for the restroom when he stumbled into a crowded room that he couldn't get out of.
Robert Kennedy was hit with a sudden wave of depression. He pulled out a gun and committed suicide by shooting himself in the head and other places on his body. He also fired other shots that missed himself because he was a horrible shot.

As Robert Kennedy was falling to the floor the gun slipped from his hand bounced off a near by table and landed in poor Sirhan's innocent hands.

The next thing Sirhan knew Rosie Greer was breaking his fingers to get the gun Sirhan didn't even realize he was holding until it was too late.;)
 
Robert Prey said:
Look up the word p-a-t-s-y.
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And a patsy requires hypnotism because...?


Seriously, even if you needed a patsy, why ignore the methods of acquiring one through the mundane means that are actually possible through science. The closest methods to this kind of "hypnotism" require prolonged stockholm like processes. That leave the subject unreliable.

So. You can invest time and money making an unstable weapon that wont work to be a patsy. Or just recruit a patsy who already wants to kill somebody.

So I repeat: why even adopt a ridiculous unreliable element when it is not required? Because you have a few million dollars to waste?

The suggestion is plain stupid.
 
Tomtomkent said:
And a patsy requires hypnotism because...?


Seriously, even if you needed a patsy, why ignore the methods of acquiring one through the mundane means that are actually possible through science. The closest methods to this kind of "hypnotism" require prolonged stockholm like processes. That leave the subject unreliable.

So. You can invest time and money making an unstable weapon that wont work to be a patsy. Or just recruit a patsy who already wants to kill somebody.

So I repeat: why even adopt a ridiculous unreliable element when it is not required? Because you have a few million dollars to waste?

The suggestion is plain stupid.
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You continue to argue with "success" A Manchurian Candidate might not even remember committing the act. No need to recruit a Jack Ruby to shut him up permanently; he just doesn't remember. This case is not as easy to prove as is the JFK conspiracy, but even so ...

"Dr. Herbert Spiegel, a New York psychiatrist who teaches at Columbia University and who is widely regarded as among this country's leading experts on hypnosis, has concluded that Sirhan was probably acting out hypnotic commands when he fired a gun in Senator Kennedy's presence that fateful day. Sirhan himself was so disoriented following his arrest that he did not even know he had yet to be arraigned. During pre-trial psychiatric examinations in his cell, Sirhan proved to be the ideal hypnotic subject, climbing the bars without knowing that he was carrying out post-hypnotic commands. Expert trial testimony established that notebook passages containing repetitions of the phrase "RFK Must Die" were written in a hypnotic trance, and Sirhan spontaneously reproduced this phrase under hypnosis when asked in his cell for a description of the Senator. Sirhan's amnesia about the crime was unshaken by hypnosis and has consistently remained intact."

http://www.rense.com/politics6/sirhan.htm

This expert opinion also refutes the common belief that you cannot make someone under hypnosis do something he wouldn't normally do.
 
Actually I was asking a hypotheical "why".

Saying something has happened has not answered "why".

I can only assume you are answering questions I didn't ask because you can't answer the one I did.
 
Brattus said:
There is no JFK conspiracy. There never has been. There is the JFK conspiracy theory. Is that what you are referring too?
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Unfortunately no. He thinks he has proven a conspiracy.

What Robert thinks he has proven, and what the world recognises as proof differ.
 
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