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repressed memory syndrome

Barak

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Hi.. Not sure if this is the right forum, since it doesn't deal with paranormal but with "junk" science. If it's the wrong place, please move it.

Just ran into a fairly balanced account on the "repressed memory syndrome" over at Slate, which also touches on what scientific evidence judges should admit in court.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2112746/

Comments?
 
I'm surprised there is only one mention of Elizabeth Loftus. Her work, and her advocacy, has been a serious force in this debate.

This is a topic I examine in class. The one thing that stands out is that no matter which side is right, somebody has had something horrible happen. Either someone is abused and then ignored, or someone is innocent and accused of the most heinous crimes (and typically has their life ruined as a result). A no-win situation.
 
Mercutio said:
I'm surprised there is only one mention of Elizabeth Loftus. Her work, and her advocacy, has been a serious force in this debate.

This is a topic I examine in class. The one thing that stands out is that no matter which side is right, somebody has had something horrible happen. Either someone is abused and then ignored, or someone is innocent and accused of the most heinous crimes (and typically has their life ruined as a result). A no-win situation.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a total nightmare.

Even when an innocent person is exonerated, the accuser then believes that justice was not done. They remain stuck with the belief that they were victimized and the criminal got away with the crime and have to live with that belief.

Talk about catch-22.
 
An Infinite Ocean said:
As far as I am aware, there is not one shred of credible evidence favouring the existence of repressed memories.
Click to expand...

I have had some experiences that may have a bearing on this discussion, although it's anecdotal. I personally know of people who had suppressed memories.

Three were friends/acquaintences (sp?) who had violent car accidents, and the last thing they remembered was that they were simply driving down the road in full control of their cars.

The next thing they knew, they were waking up in the hospital (or ambulance), and had absolutely no recollection of how they got there. None of them sustained any head injuries. Two had lower limb injuries, and one had lower abdominal damage. One of them started dreaming about the event and eventually remembered much of it almost 9 months later. The others never rememered a thing. (So far, anyway.)

I also knew a number of U.S. Marines that returned from Vietnam totally traumatized by their experiences. (I was in the USMC during that war.)

Some of these guys would have the worst nightmares, but never remembered what they were about. (I had to perform "watch" some evenings. It was a chilling experience.)

Documentation of why they were relieved and sent back to barracks for outprocessing was available to me in my position, along with first-hand accounts of the events; it turned out a lot of them witnessed incredibly traumatic things.

During discussions and during the evaluation process, it was apparent that they had no conscious recollection of these events. (They themselves were not guilty of any criminal acts, btw. The reason they were being evaluated was because their behavior became so erratic after the events.)

I personally have no doubt that memories and emotions can be repressed. I also firmly believe that a lot of so-called "repressed memories" are false ones.
 
jmercer:

Memory loss in automobile acidents is not, technically, the same thing as what's being discussed here (at least in most cases). Even without any obvious head wounds, memory loss (especially in a front or rear collision) is fairly common. In these types of crashes, the brain gets "bounced around" inside the skull. When you get a front-to-back bouncing, it can cause short term memory failure. In more serious cases, it can cause actual bleeding and swelling in the brain, and be a life threatening event. If I recall my terminology, this type of injury is called a coos-a-coos.

I do agree with you, however, that memory supression is possible in some circumstances. I also believe, however, that hypnosis is not the way to release those memories, and is more likely to modify the memory or create new ones than unlock any true event.
 
Well yes, there's a big difference between memory loss as a result of head trauma and "memory repression". Most striking, at least to me, is that in most cases I've seen of it discussed, there isn't even a claim that -anything- was done to repress the memories, short of the actual event that was repressed being so traumatic in itself.

Also, more often than not in the cases in which it seems most likely that -something- happened, such as soldiers in war, for example, it's either "details" that are forgotten, or complete amnesia. Correct me if I'm wrong, jmercer, but the soldiers didn't come back from Vietnam with a full, detailed "replacement" for the supressed memory, did they?

As an aside, are you related to a Paul Mercer?
 
Huntsman said:
jmercer:

Memory loss in automobile acidents is not, technically, the same thing as what's being discussed here (at least in most cases). Even without any obvious head wounds, memory loss (especially in a front or rear collision) is fairly common. In these types of crashes, the brain gets "bounced around" inside the skull. When you get a front-to-back bouncing, it can cause short term memory failure. In more serious cases, it can cause actual bleeding and swelling in the brain, and be a life threatening event. If I recall my terminology, this type of injury is called a coos-a-coos.

I do agree with you, however, that memory supression is possible in some circumstances. I also believe, however, that hypnosis is not the way to release those memories, and is more likely to modify the memory or create new ones than unlock any true event.
Click to expand...

Hey, Huntsman - thanks. Yes, that makes sense - I've been in accidents (without injury, thank goodness) and you do get your noggin shaken up quite a bit, so we can write off the automobile accident stuff to that.
 
Barak said:
Well yes, there's a big difference between memory loss as a result of head trauma and "memory repression". Most striking, at least to me, is that in most cases I've seen of it discussed, there isn't even a claim that -anything- was done to repress the memories, short of the actual event that was repressed being so traumatic in itself.

Also, more often than not in the cases in which it seems most likely that -something- happened, such as soldiers in war, for example, it's either "details" that are forgotten, or complete amnesia. Correct me if I'm wrong, jmercer, but the soldiers didn't come back from Vietnam with a full, detailed "replacement" for the supressed memory, did they?

As an aside, are you related to a Paul Mercer?
Click to expand...

No, you're 100% correct - it was complete amnesia, no false memory substitution, etc. Just to make sure that I'm clear here, the only reason I commented at all was because it seemed that the thread was going into denial vis-a-vis the existence of memory repression entirely.

One of the really, really sad cases did concoct detailed fantasies regarding what he witnessed, which I suppose might be considered substitute memories. He was completely delusional, of course, but he swore his version was reality, and could recite the details consistently. :(

Regarding Paul Mercer... not that I know of. :)
 
It's probably important to focus on how the "repressed" memories are recovered. The methods used (as described in the OP link) are "hypnosis, age regression and suggestion therapies". This sounds more like therapists actually planting memories into "patients" minds than anything else... :(
 
jmercer said:
No, you're 100% correct - it was complete amnesia, no false memory substitution, etc. Just to make sure that I'm clear here, the only reason I commented at all was because it seemed that the thread was going into denial vis-a-vis the existence of memory repression entirely.

One of the really, really sad cases did concoct detailed fantasies regarding what he witnessed, which I suppose might be considered substitute memories. He was completely delusional, of course, but he swore his version was reality, and could recite the details consistently.

Regarding Paul Mercer... not that I know of.
Click to expand...

Well I don't think anyone, either skeptics or scientists, would deny the existence of amnesia, either partial or complete, temporary or permanent.

Unless I'm mistaken, what is under debate when one mention "repressed memory syndrome" are usually cases where a person wasn't aware -at all- that there was any repressed memory. In fact, the "memories" were completely replaced by "false" memories. Then, when going to a therapist (usually, if not always one that uses hypnotism) for an unrelated subject (I've read of cases were it was for weight loss, or even to stop smoking), those "memories" resurface. There has even been documented cases were the patient herself (for some reason, rarely are boys involved, although the case I started this thread with involved one) denied that the memories could possibly be real, but then the therapist claims that the patient is still in denial.

One of the cases I've read that troubled me the most involved a woman claiming that her father had abused her. The father was now deceased. The mother was outraged, and managed to prove, through military files, that her husband was actually in Korea through most of the time of the alleged abuse. The therapist then "convinced" the poor woman, again through hypnosis, that it must have been "Uncle Joe", then.

In fact, many alleged UFO kidnappings have been related to the same "false memory syndrome". Those cases, although also very sad, get less attention. Probably because no one has managed to arrest the aliens and charge them with kidnapping, as of yet.
 
What is the difference between repressing a memory and simply forgetting?

I seem to have repressed where I left ascrewdriver some 3 minutes ago. I assume you mean a different mechanism, but what is it?
 
Soapy Sam said:
What is the difference between repressing a memory and simply forgetting?

I seem to have repressed where I left ascrewdriver some 3 minutes ago. I assume you mean a different mechanism, but what is it?
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I think there is no way you could forget about something as big as a rape, but it makes a legit-sounding excuse if you were going to make it up. How would you distinguish "repressed memories" from false ones?
 
Mercutio said:
I'm surprised there is only one mention of Elizabeth Loftus. Her work, and her advocacy, has been a serious force in this debate.

This is a topic I examine in class. The one thing that stands out is that no matter which side is right, somebody has had something horrible happen. Either someone is abused and then ignored, or someone is innocent and accused of the most heinous crimes (and typically has their life ruined as a result). A no-win situation.
Click to expand...

FYI, she (Elizabeth Loftus) is scheduled to testify today in the trial of a Paul Shanley, a priest accused of child rape in Boston. The accuser is basing it all on a recovered memory. Recovered indeed, he has already "recovered" $500,000 in the civil suit against the church. I don't doubt there are true incidents abuse by priests, but this one, frankly stinks. There were originally three accusers, but the prosecution only put one of them on the stand.

Shanley trial
 
Let's link to this again: The value of scepticism illustrated : "I began to add a few things up and realized there was no way I could come from a little town in Iowa, be eating 2,000 people a year, and nobody said anything about it."

The trouble is that if you can "recover" absolutely any memory your therapist chooses, then no "recovered memory" has any evidential value.
 
c4ts said:
I think there is no way you could forget about something as big as a rape, but it makes a legit-sounding excuse if you were going to make it up. How would you distinguish "repressed memories" from false ones?
Click to expand...

I disagree. I have not (so far as I recall) been raped, but among events I have wholly forgotten (in the sense that I had not thought of them at all in decades and when questioned could give no answers) are...

An entire five weeks in East Africa.

Making love to a particular woman. (Three times, evidently).

Believe me, I could go on. I have "learned" about these events and others from diaries or other people. Occasionally, I flatly do not believe them until I see evidence.

I have a reasonable memory for things I consciously decide to remember. The rest is dumped.
 
Yep, Elizabeth Loftus is very important in debunking the 'repressed memory' myth (and it is a myth) as is the excellent book 'Making Monsters', by Richard Ofshe and Ethan Watters. It appears that there is very strong evidence which demonstrates that False Memory Syndrome and the related Multiple Personality Disorder are created by therapists.

Routinely, I used to generate false memories in people when I was a rattlesnake of a brainwasher for the vicious scientology cult, and I can attest from personal experience that there is really no such thing as repressed memories, because these so-called 'recovered memories' are invariably false.

There's a lot of nonsense talked about memory, because people in general aren't clear about what it actually is. For what it's worth, the best science on the subject demonstrates that memory isn't a hard and fast record of things which happened. Memory is really an elastic capacity, and it's extremely suggestible (see Loftus).

That, however, is my anecdotal two shillings, so how about a reference to some real scientific studies? Well, there are several; and unequivocally they demonstrate that if the memory contains trauma then it's pretty significant and unlikely to be forgotten.

I recall a four-year follow up which was done on 26 kids who survived being kidnapped in 1979 by a nutter who hijacked their school bus. The kidnapper then buried the bus with the children in it, in a sand-filled swimming pool, I believe. He kept them in the dark for days with a feeding tube stuck into the roof.

The only kids who couldn't remember the incident were the ones who were too young at the time (it seems that the capacity for memory isn't fully developed until the age of three, which is why we're all pretty hazy about our lives before then, if we recall anything at all). Surprise, surprise, the two who couldn't remember weren't yet three. Many of the other 24 kids did exhibit psychological damage, but nobody repressed anything and indeed, the detail with which some recalled the incident was quite extraordinary. (Terr, 1979, 1983).

I also remember Malmquist's study of 16 children who saw a parent murdered and were perfectly able to describe the situation. Again, there was no repression.

I was watching BBC's documentary earlier today, and pertinently, it reminded me that survivors of Auschwitz and the other Nazi death camps similarly don't repress their experiences. Many don't want to discuss it, but that's a different story.

The jury is indeed back from their deliberation, and the verdict is in: repressed memories are a load of harmful old tosh. On the other hand, false memories are a fact, and that's what the repressed memory crowd are laying in. They're creating mental illnesses including Multiple Personality Disorder.

The most visible proponent of this awful myth is Laura Davis, through her book 'The Courage to Heal'. Her followers are dangerous charlatans who get innocent people railroaded into prison, convicted of offences which never happened.

Cheers!

Eddie
 
Soapy Sam said:
I disagree. I have not (so far as I recall) been raped, but among events I have wholly forgotten (in the sense that I had not thought of them at all in decades and when questioned could give no answers) are...

An entire five weeks in East Africa.

Making love to a particular woman. (Three times, evidently).

Believe me, I could go on. I have "learned" about these events and others from diaries or other people. Occasionally, I flatly do not believe them until I see evidence.

I have a reasonable memory for things I consciously decide to remember. The rest is dumped.
Click to expand...

Isn't the whole point of repressed memory that the memory is of something terrible?

I believe that people can repress memories. I also know that people can create false memories through hypnosis. Hell, you can create a false memory without hypnosis, but I think using hypnosis in memory recovery is like sending a fox to find your lost chickens.
 
What happened after all those people in the 1980s discovered that they had repressed memories of being sexual abused in satanic cults? Did the hypnotherapists find them all? Because I haven't heard about all the other people that had repressed memories of being sexual abused in satanic cults for about 15 years.

Of course it seems that people could have repressed memories of traumatic events. But, are there any cases where a hypnotist (or some such) uncovered a unknown repressed memory and it turned out there was hard physical proof that the repressed memory was true?

I would think that a hypnotist might be able to uncover repressed memories about specific events of a war or car accident, but I don't think that war veterans or car accident victims typically have no recollection of at least that "something happened" and probably even know that they were in a war or an accident--unless they are completely bonkers, which can happen. In other words, if kids were sexual abused in satanic cults they should be able to at least say, without hypnosis, that they know that they were abused--but don't remeber exactly how.

So, any case where someone had a total lack of memory of a traumatic event that the person never even knew had happened? Any case of a hypnotherapist uncovering such an event which is supported by previously unkown physical evidence?
 
Well, FWIW, the ones I met knew, of course, that they'd been in a war. But they didn't know they were missing a memory.

Here's the thing - it's hard to keep track of days, weeks and months under those circumstances, so losing a memory of a day (or in one case, a few hours) wouldn't raise a ripple in their heads. Everything just blended together after a while.

Their erratic behavior following the event(s) got them ID'ed as needing attention. Subsequent interviews with buddies indicated that they never talked about the event(s). When questioned about the events, they simply had no conscious recollection of it, or of missing any time.

It's weird, but it's very true. I have no idea if hypnosis could get those memories going or not - but from what little I understand of the supposed basis for hypnosis, I'd say "probably not".
 
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