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Remember " James' Ossuary "?

Skeptical Greg

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The latest issue of 'Skeptical Inquirer' shines further light on this probable hoax...
Bone (Box) of Contention: The James Ossuary

Taken together, the various clues suggest a scenario in which a forger purchased a genuine ossuary that--lacking feet, elaborate ornament, and inscription--cost little. He then obtained an Aramaic rendition of the desired wording, carved it into what seemed a good spot on the blank back, and perhaps added patination followed by "cleaning" to help mitigate against the fresh look of the carving.

There was a lot of speculation within Christian circles, that this could be evidence regarding the historocity of Jesus..


Of course, as skeptics we have to admit, that proving it is a hoax doesn't prove, Jesus didn't happen either.. All it proves, is that we still don't have any evidence...
 
Well, further, even if the bones really are those of the historical James, brother of the historical Jesus, it still doesn't prove that Jesus was the son of God. Well, no more the son of God than any of us are, anyway.
 
The funny thing is when Christians got excited that this was evidence of the historical Jesus. The fact that it's a big deal at all says a lot about the quality of previous evidence for Jesus.

Compare it to the evidence for evolution. If scientists found a new fossil, or series of fossils, that showed very bluntly that evolution happened, would there be great revelry? No, it would just be another thing to pile up. It might be cool, but nobody would be terribly excited, because when something has already been that well established, it's not that big a deal anymore. Kind of like proving that gravity works.

Is anyone really surprised that the James Ossuary caused such a stir, given the poor existing evidence for Jesus?
 
TheERK said:
The funny thing is when Christians got excited that this was evidence of the historical Jesus. The fact that it's a big deal at all says a lot about the quality of previous evidence for Jesus.

Compare it to the evidence for evolution. If scientists found a new fossil, or series of fossils, that showed very bluntly that evolution happened, would there be great revelry? No, it would just be another thing to pile up. It might be cool, but nobody would be terribly excited, because when something has already been that well established, it's not that big a deal anymore. Kind of like proving that gravity works.

Is anyone really surprised that the James Ossuary caused such a stir, given the poor existing evidence for Jesus?

Some good points...

It's like.... Why bother to prove it's a hoax? Let em' have this one... When you pile it up with the other evidence... Well, now you have one piece...

Next?
 
Diogenes said:

Some good points...

It's like.... Why bother to prove it's a hoax? Let em' have this one... When you pile it up with the other evidence... Well, now you have one piece...

Next?
I'm not inclined to let them have their one piece, if it is not legitimate. Each piece will be used to support the next.

I am thinking if discussions on the church & state separation issue in which people used the current pledge of allegiance or the 'in god we trust' on money to try to establish that religion in government is not out of bounds.

I say make them fight properly for each piece.
 
arcticpenguin said:

I'm not inclined to let them have their one piece, if it is not legitimate. Each piece will be used to support the next.

I am thinking if discussions on the church & state separation issue in which people used the current pledge of allegiance or the 'in god we trust' on money to try to establish that religion in government is not out of bounds.

I say make them fight properly for each piece.


Guess they're back down to zero...:(
 
arcticpenguin said:

I'm not inclined to let them have their one piece, if it is not legitimate. Each piece will be used to support the next.

I agree almost violently. :cool:

I am thinking if discussions on the church & state separation issue in which people used the current pledge of allegiance or the 'in god we trust' on money to try to establish that religion in government is not out of bounds.

That thing about that that makes my head hurt is that AFAIK, the reason that the Supreme Court decided that 'In God We Trust' is okay, is because God is not a religious concept. I have no idea how much crack they smoked that day. ;)

I say make them fight properly for each piece.

Or at least supply valid evidence.

To go from "hey, we found what appears to be an old bone box" to "this proves Jesus was the son of God" is so irrational that I don't know where to even start.
 
Diogenes said:
There was a lot of speculation within Christian circles, that this could be evidence regarding the historocity of Jesus..

Of course, as skeptics we have to admit, that proving it is a hoax doesn't prove, Jesus didn't happen either.. All it proves, is that we still don't have any evidence...

Yeah well, still don't have evidence but it's another fake anyway...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/06/18/jesus.box/index.html
 
However, Oded Golan, the Israeli owner of the "James ossuary," dismissed the findings.

"I am certain the ossuary is real, I am certain that the committee is wrong regarding its conclusions," he said.

Golan had earlier said he had problems with the committee and its methods of investigation saying they had "preconceived notions."
I guess the owner is a bit reluctant to give up his meal ticket eh?
 
Diogenes said:



There is no doubt it is a real ossuary ....;)
True that. He didn't exactly say the inscription was really a truly ancient and valid reference to Jesus now did he?
 
TheERK said:
The funny thing is when Christians got excited that this was evidence of the historical Jesus. The fact that it's a big deal at all says a lot about the quality of previous evidence for Jesus.

Compare it to the evidence for evolution. If scientists found a new fossil, or series of fossils, that showed very bluntly that evolution happened, would there be great revelry? No, it would just be another thing to pile up. It might be cool, but nobody would be terribly excited, because when something has already been that well established, it's not that big a deal anymore. Kind of like proving that gravity works.

Is anyone really surprised that the James Ossuary caused such a stir, given the poor existing evidence for Jesus?
I think that if a new type of conclusive, unambiguous fossil evidence of evolution were discovered (to the extent it hasn't already been discovered; I'm no specialist), it would cause excitement among experts because of its novelty, but it would not strike a real chord with laypeople because, psychologically, most people don't feel (or have a deep desire to feel) a profound personal link to prehistoric fauna. This is why animal fossils (while sometimes very interesting) don't ordinarily inspire us the way paleoanthropological or archeological finds do. Something in our own humanity resonates within us when we regard the Pyramids of Egypt or read about the Tyrolean Iceman. The same basic effect prevails in a slightly different way when we contemplate the physical artifacts (gifts, clothes, letters etc.) associated with loved ones who are absent.

I can entirely understand why the James Ossuary provoked the kind of excitement it did. It's more like a sign saying "George Washington slept here" than it is like a trilobite fossil. In our imaginations, that kind of human artifact briefly collapses the time and distance that separate us from the person or persons with whom it is associated. This is something naturally fascinating to us, particularly in the case of a person like Jesus, who casts a very long and unique shadow across the Western cultural imagination.

That's why I think the James Ossuary caused a stir. After all, even when it was thought genuine, it wasn't remarkable for its evidentiary value per se. Just like evolution, the historicity of Jesus is something most people, experts and laymen alike, have accepted. It was remarkable because it was a new kind of evidence, of a sort that the human psyche finds particularly fascinating. (As the CNN.com article noted, "While most scholars agree that Jesus existed, no physical evidence from the first century has ever been conclusively tied with his life.")
 
This is being discussed over in Banter. I agree that R&P is the better place for it, but over there, we have Lucianarchy! His/her special brand of fanatacism makes any discussion interesting.
 
Tricky said:
This is being discussed over in Banter. I agree that R&P is the better place for it, but over there, we have Lucianarchy! His/her special brand of fanatacism makes any discussion interesting.
Discussed? More like hijacked. Of interest only to those who enjoy train wrecks.
 
arcticpenguin said:

Discussed? More like hijacked. Of interest only to those who enjoy train wrecks.
Yeah, but more links, more info, more trolls! That's why it is up to three pages already!
 

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