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Religious experiences

sackett

Barely Tolerated Lampooneer
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Carl Jung liked to use the word "religious" to describe experiences and practices that included the numinous, that is, anything spiritually elevated, especially when accompanied by a sense of supernatural presence. (Although the Jungians and their derivatives can be seriously waffle-witted, old C.G. himself wasn't all daffy all the time; in fact, a lot of what he says is pleasantly sensible.) I think all of us, village atheists and God-botherers, have had religious experiences, sometimes exalted, sometimes pitiful and craving.

I'll go first. On the evening of that September 11, my wife and I sat down to dinner feeling - well, you remember how you felt. We didn't have much appetite, but we poured a glass of wine; we needed it. It's our custom to drink a toast with the first glass. Most times, we toast frivolously, or laughingly, or heartily; our toasts are for fun. That night, we lifted our glasses and then sat there still and wordless. I was searching for something to say. At first I wanted to drink to the dead; but the dead are safely out of our reach; we can envy them, but we can't do them good or harm; the dead no longer exist. The words came at last: "To the living," I said, and we drank down our wine and tears.

Later, I described this experience to a knowledgeable man, a former protestant minister and a working psychologist. I had thought about that moment, recognizing it as religious, and with some effort I was able to say to him, "I found that I wanted to pray, but I had nothing to pray to." I told him what I had said. "Yes," he assured me, "that was a good prayer."

Well, that was one of my religious experiences, and I'm not ashamed of it; I don't have to go back and reject it as unreasoning. The impulse to religion is an attempt to fill a need, in this case a need for comfort. Pretty often, we want someone bigger than we are to tell us that everything's going to be all right. If that was all that went on inside the temples and churches and mosques, I wouldn't be concerned at all; let religion ramble right along, with or without gods and devils.

But since the situation is otherwise, maybe we should examine our own seemingly religious natures, to gain some intuitive understanding of what drives the believers.
 
Very nice post, Sackett. I think I'll have to go back and read it again when I have more time.

One very moving, "spiritual" experience I had occurred on a windy, warm September day in the Laramie Range of Wyoming. I stopped my car on a dirt road and set off to do some hiking and sketching. A few minutes later, the seemingly ever-present wind halted. I found myself in an infinite expanse of yellow grass, sagebrush, and cracked rock outcroppings, the blue sky overhead, no sign of another human or animal to be seen--in absolute silence. No sound at all, except for my breath.

At that moment, I felt weirdly connected. It was as if my feet were a part of the pink, gravelly soil underneath, and through that I was attached to all the stones, mountains, and scrubby pine trees and aspens that I could see. I could almost feel the earth turning, and the weight of the blue sky pressing down, and the warmth of the sunlight on all of it.

It was intoxicating, and it also made me feel very tiny. Feeling that overwhelmed by something so beautiful can be very comforting when you normally spend time worrying about car payments, illness, whatever. To me, that's what the sacred is.
 
Medicine country

Thank you, Bluegill.

Beautiful, terrible, beautiful Wyoming. Up in the Laramie Range, you say? Pink granite underfoot? Sounds like Happy Jack or Veedauwoo.

My country is medicine country; no need to put the word spiritual in quotes: that -was- your spirit speaking, naming the great nameless thing. All humans feel that it's there, and some of our life's greatest emotions come when for a moment we see it. The difference between these moments and mere religion is that THE EARTH IS REALLY THERE!
 
sackett said:
Thank you, Bluegill.

Beautiful, terrible, beautiful Wyoming. Up in the Laramie Range, you say? Pink granite underfoot? Sounds like Happy Jack or Veedauwoo.

My country is medicine country; no need to put the word spiritual in quotes: that -was- your spirit speaking, naming the great nameless thing. All humans feel that it's there, and some of our life's greatest emotions come when for a moment we see it. The difference between these moments and mere religion is that THE EARTH IS REALLY THERE!

You know the place! Yes, not far off Happy Jack Road (specifically, the Camp Carey area, if you know it. Close to Eagle Rock. I loved going up there. It was crazy, the places I used to drive my ten-year-old Festiva.

It happened again, at another time, in the Snowy Range, when I was fishing in a reservoir. Different scenery, same effect.

I'm in my mid-30s, and I only lived in Laramie for two-and-a-half years. But during that short time, I experienced the very best things and the very worst things that every happened to me. It was a very wonderful and very difficult time.

I can't put my finger on it, it's hard to be specific, but I think life is somehow harder to live there, in that kind of area. Maybe I just feel that way because I grew up in a warmer, greener river valley. In some way, it felt like the beautiful land and weather were continually probing me for weaknesses, looking for things to knock loose or shake apart within me or steal. "Beautiful, terrible" indeed! Very raw, lots of fun, fascinating. When have you been there?

...and if I had not said "Laramie Range," you'd still recognize it from my pink gravel reference, right? Pink gravel! Everywhere! Nuts.

edited to add: Sackett, just read your profile. I don't know where Big Horn is, but is it near Greybull? I've been there, briefly, and drove up into the Big Horns. Visited the Medicine Wheel on a misty, rainy afternoon when I couldn't see anything.

I see that your paint and draw--I do, too, and Wyoming was a huge change for me. I loved painting out there.

I don't throw knives, but I have a friend who won a medallion in a women's knife-throwing competition at a mountain man rendezvous.

edited again to add: I hope I haven't completely derailed this thread. Hmmm. "Derailing a thread." Isn't that an awfully mixed metaphor?
 
Bluegill said:


You know the place!

Hell's afire, Blue, I wuz borned 'n growed up in Wyomin'. (All right, I'll can the dialect.)

. . . In some way, it felt like the beautiful land and weather were continually probing me for weaknesses, looking for things to knock loose or shake apart within me or steal.

That sounds like anthropomorphizing, but you and I know it's not, rather it's just a useful way of expressing the sense of an immense reality that comes upon us in beautiful places.

...and if I had not said "Laramie Range," you'd still recognize it from my pink gravel reference, right? Pink gravel! Everywhere! Nuts.

Put me down blindfolded and ears plugged on that singing land, and I could describe everything around me just from the feel of the granite underfoot. Yes indeedy, and nothing mysterious about it.

. . . I don't know where Big Horn is

That is correct. You don't know where Big Horn, Wyoming is.

. . . Visited the Medicine Wheel on a misty, rainy afternoon when I couldn't see anything.

You too? Must've been the same day. I tried mightily to resist the wierdness of the Medicine Wheel; not altogether successfully.

. . . I have a friend who won a medallion in a women's knife-throwing competition at a mountain man rendezvous.

I've coached ladies in knife throwing, and found that they take to it just fine, may God forgive me.

edited again to add: I hope I haven't completely derailed this thread.

Not a bit, you've added to it. I'm thinking especially of your reference to the Snowies. If the phrase "savage beauty" is to mean anything, it must refer to them.

Hmmm. "Derailing a thread." Isn't that an awfully mixed metaphor?

Hope so; you can't crumble a cookie without mixing metaphors.

All you flatlanders take note: A sojourn in the real world can exalt your mind wonderfully, without in any way clouding it.
 
sackett said:
But since the situation is otherwise, maybe we should examine our own seemingly religious natures, to gain some intuitive understanding of what drives the believers.

I found your post interesting but not surprizing.Many people, even atheists have connected Religion with the most human feelings.

Allow me to make a comment to the last sentence of your post though.

"The situation is otherwise" too. I have been debating in this forum the belief that the extremes in Religion rule. Generally speaking whether it's about Religion or Politics the extremes make a lot of noise, sometimes distract our attention from the essence but generally speaking they have nothing to do with everyday reality.Sometimes you have the feeling that the extremes last as long as the 8 o' clock news... If you don't believe me read the threads about Middle East :)

In everyday life, common people-like me for example- resort to praying because they need help to deal with illnesses, loses and fears and a series of questions that don't have easy or logical answers or they have no answers at all.

I have been reading threads in this forum and still I haven't understood why atheists must feel awkward when they feel the need to pray.
 
sackett said:

I think all of us, village atheists and God-botherers, have had religious experiences, sometimes exalted, sometimes pitiful and craving.


There are a lot of hard-core atheists that would disagree with that.


Pretty often, we want someone bigger than we are to tell us that everything's going to be all right.


Or something too, and I'd say not necessarily to just tell us that everything will be all right, but rather to give us a hint that we aren't just meat, or a machine, for example, and that we are part of that something.

My 'religious' experiences consist of vivid dreams about melting away into a black background, kind of like a dissolve transition. I've also had a 'religious' experience just thinking about, while experiencing, breathing in what a tree breathes out, and vice versa. Somehow I'm breathing the tree and it is breathing me. :)
 
Sackett and Bluegill:

I read your posts about your religious experiences and expected something else. Your religious experiences seem like...life.

There were no ghosts of the dead telling you how pleasant heaven was; there was no angel saving you from a satanic hobo; there was no giant-headed Yahweh thrusting his head through your ceiling and telling you to cut off your son's nuts.

It seemed to me one was a connection to a mate and one was a connection to nature. Nothing supernatural.

Certainly I've connected with various things, but I never equated the connection with a 'supernatural presence'.

If it don't come with a talking snake it ain't religious.
 
triadboy said:
There were no ghosts of the dead telling you how pleasant heaven was; there was no angel saving you from a satanic hobo; there was no giant-headed Yahweh thrusting his head through your ceiling and telling you to cut off your son's nuts.

I am curious. Do you know any Christians that claim that they have talked to the dead and they know that heaven is a pleasant place?

Paranormal beliefs are against the Canon of the Christians dogmas.
 
Cleo:
I have been reading threads in this forum and still I haven't understood why atheists must feel awkward when they feel the need to pray.
Have any acclaimed atheists here ever said they felt the need to pray? If so, I haven't seen it.

I have never prayed in my entire life. (I have feverently hoped though. As in "I hope, I hope, I hope I can talk her into my bed!". :D)

But I have never prayed, and have never felt the need to.
 
DanishDynamite said:
Have any acclaimed atheists here ever said they felt the need to pray? If so, I haven't seen it.

This is how I took the opening post in this thread.
 
triadboy said:
Sackett and Bluegill:

I read your posts about your religious experiences and expected something else. Your religious experiences seem like...life.

There were no ghosts of the dead telling you how pleasant heaven was; there was no angel saving you from a satanic hobo; there was no giant-headed Yahweh thrusting his head through your ceiling and telling you to cut off your son's nuts.

It seemed to me one was a connection to a mate and one was a connection to nature. Nothing supernatural.

Certainly I've connected with various things, but I never equated the connection with a 'supernatural presence'.

If it don't come with a talking snake it ain't religious.

Triadboy, I agree with you completely. I'm not sure, but it sort of looks to me like Sackett would, too.

I do not believe in the supernatural, and I don't have any belief in god or spirits.

The point of my post (and I'm sorry it wasn't clear, I know it wasn't) was that I've had experiences, many of them, that have touched my soul at its foundation, if I have a soul. I don't believe in souls, but I believe that these sorts of experiences are the things that hit me in the core, hit me in the place that's the closest thing to a soul for an atheist like me.

It's a religious experience for a person who doesn't have religion. And do you know what I think the real basis for this stuff is? It's knowledge. It's self-awareness, it's a love of science and reason, it's an acceptance of the fact that I'm tiny and mortal and fallible, but that depite that, I can use my brain to explore concepts and emotions and relationships and a natural, physical world that is bigger and more mysterious and more beautiful than I have any hope of comprehending. But I can almost comprehend it. I'm a part of it.

That, to me, is religion. Not blind acceptance. Not that born-again "special evidence" I'm-saved crap. Well, OK, it's not religion. You are right- it's living. As far as I know, it's all I've got, and I'm damn well gonna enjoy it, celebrate it as sacred, and call it my soul.
 
Several things

Good meat in this thread, though I does say it meself.

First, remember that I'm using "religious" in a pretty general way. Jung wanted a word for a class of human experiences, including certain emotions, that involved a sense of the transcendent; he also liked the word "numinous." If we can get accustomed to his usage, the word -religious- comes very handy. Danged if I can think of a more commodious one.

Until the evening of that day, I had never felt the urge to pray, and I had trouble recognizing it when it came. My wife suggests that a toast is already a kind of prayer; fair enough; I know better than to disagree with the War Department.

I think that when religious people pray, they're begging the big ape to spare their life and let them have something to eat, nothing more complicated than that, and maybe hard-wired into all of us.

Now I'll shed another piece of armor and admit that I too have used the word "soul" to try to express a sense of inner being. I've been corrected for using that word, because it's supposed to mean an immortal part of us, and of course I don't believe in that; the idea of living FOREVER! is oppressive and frightening; we aren't made for infinite things, and I believe I'd get pretty bored with heaven and with those heavenly hosts twanging their harps to everlasting.

Try this idea, Bluegill, again my wife's: A sense of connectedness to the world - to the whole universe as far as we understand it - may be the normal human state. After all, we evolved in places rather like Wyoming (barring the winters), and we first came to consciousness in a world of quiet immensity. Civilized man, poor soul, doesn't get out into such a world very often, and may simply not have much chance to feel connected - to feel human.
 
Another experience

Another religious experience, more superstitious in nature, but not to be disregarded:

My wife and I were walking on Pelee Point, the southernmost place in Canada. It's a strange wisp of land in the midst of the great waters, worth a visit in part because it's constantly changing as the winter ice and summer waves push it around. We were nearing the open beach at the tip of the Point, and looked up to see at least a dozen eagles circling in the sky ahead of us. That was an unusual sight in itself, since we seldom see eagles in such numbers, although of course the young ones must flock sometimes, to find mates.

I remarked facetiously that I didn't think eagles were -really- magical birds, medicine birds as we say out West; that was just exaggeration. People are too easily impressed with eagles!

The instant I spoke, one of the eagles detached himself from the circle and flew low over our heads - low enough anyway, perhaps thirty feet. And as he wheeled, he slowed and looked down, directly at me, his head cocked sidewise and his eye sparkling as he studied me from above. That's right, he gave me the eye; now I understand that phrase. He took plenty of time overhead, as we walked in sudden silence and, yes, in sudden humility. For a moment, the air was filled with an inexpressible significance. Medicine, medicine.

Of course it was just coincidence. The bird would have flown over to examine us whether I had spoken or not. Of course. And if I saw something amused in his expression, that was just fallible human fantasy. And I admit that this was a superstitious experience, don't I?
 
Re: Another experience

That happens to me, but with turkey buzzards. :D
 
Re: Another experience

That happens to me, but with turkey buzzards. :D

edited to add: The bird of prey so nice, it bit me twice. Sorry for the double double ppost.
 
Cleopatra said:
I am curious. Do you know any Christians that claim that they have talked to the dead and they know that heaven is a pleasant place?

No, but they have this book they refer to - that has prophesy, talking snakes, a guy who lives in a big fish for three days, talking donkeys, hemorrhoids the size of canned hams, the dead coming back to life, unicorns, zombies, a woman turned into a salt-lick, total destruction from "above", a guy who wrestles god - to a draw, water walking, humans flying, a river chock full of bloody frogs, how great heaven will be, how bad hell will be, and a God who loves the smell of Barbeque!
 
sackett said:
All you flatlanders take note: A sojourn in the real world can exalt your mind wonderfully, without in any way clouding it.
Absolutely; it's why I climb.

I remember cramponing alone up a steep, icy trail in NH in the winter time, and coming to an area with small snow covered pines (near the tree line), a fog lifting from the snow, and beautiful sunlight filtering through the trees. It was so beautiful and stirring I wept, and I'm close to that again as I type this.

I remember coming down from a peak in Nepal, overwhelmed with the beauty of the landscape, rugged Nuptse and terrifying Lhotse behind my shoulder, Ama Dablam in front of me. Again, I wept.

I remember hiking out into the desert at Joshua Tree, stopping, and feeling, not hearing, the absolute silence and stillness of that alien landscape. Like Bluegill, I was transfixed, transformed, and felt the earth spinning under my feet.

I live for these times.

Wyoming has long been a place I want to visit. This thread has made me realize that I must do something about that, soon. Thank you, sackett & bluegill, for stirring old memories and giving the impetus to create some new ones.
 
I think - I hope - I hear what you're saying.

I went to Daytona Beach last weekend - the weather was lovely and I got up early (7 am) to go out onto the beach. There was not another person in sight - just me, the waves, some gulls, the creaking sky-lift carts, a couple clouds very very low on the horizon - and a glaring pink/orange sun coming up.

I felt very small, in my body, and also very confronted with something that I could never embrace (I think that's the best word for what I thought). My first thought was back to the old Zen hoo-hah of a tree falling and no sound, but I thought "It doesn't matter whether I'm here or not - this is something that is so much greater than me, I am insignificant."

Strangely, it was a comforting thought. Maybe I spend too much of my time worrying about the hole in the ozone, the stronium 80 in the milk, the deforestation of the Amazon, that I forget just how big nature really is.

Or maybe I'm just nuts. Who knows?
 

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