Religious conservatives vs. Secularists

[Bruce]

When you listen to left-wing secularists talk, you would swear that Amercia is headed for a theocracy, that Christians are a dominant force in society, that the Republicans are trampling on our freedoms, that GWB in imposing his religious views on a frightened public, and that Secularist are a humble , dying minority, being trampled by the Christian Juggernaut.

When you listen to right-wing religious conservatives, you would swear that secularism rules the country, that the media wontonly bashes the poor Christians for no good reason, that Christians are a dying breed, a shrinking minority in wake of the overwhelming Secularist movement, and the GWB is the last knight in an age that is soon to be forgotten.

The melodrama is nauseating.

What are your views? I'll share mine later. Goodnight.

 

[Kopji]

There is a great deal of money to be made by portraying issues as simplified opposites:

More people read your papers.

News can be wrapped up neatly in 30 minutes.

Complex differences can be resolved during the commercial break.

Key points can be explained with catchy sound bites and video clips.

We can be entertained as well as be informed, this allows news to be rated on style instead of content or accuracy.









and that Secularist are a humble , dying minority, being trampled by the Christian Juggernaut.

That's us though, 100%. Especially the -sniff sniff- part about being humble. How very true.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Everyone's a martyr. To a degree, we all tend to seem prouder of ourselves if we have to endure hardships for our beliefs and values. So a prayer at graduation is an attempt to subvert all schoolchildren to the will of Jehovah and his minions, and the voices decrying that prayer will be on the front lines, slaughtering Jebusites by the thousands once the one world government is in place.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Well, those nasty "liberals" aren't actually going to force everyone to take the Mark Of The Beast, whereas the fundies really do have an agenda which would be terrifying if they ever got a chance to implement it.

And --- from where I'm sitting, which is a reassuringly long way away (I'm a big fan of the Atlantic Ocean) --- they seem to make more noise than secularist conservatives and religious liberals put together. In other words, Bruce --- it's your fault. Try joining PAW or the ACLU, or something.

(By the way, can anyone tell me what the PAW is about? The only thing I know about them is that fundies denounce them as atheist bigots, and Jerry Falwell held them responsible for God's / Allah's (delete as appropriate) wrath on 9/11. I assume that this means that any decent person would support their objectives.)

 

[Bruce]

whereas the fundies really do have an agenda

True, but the liberals also have an agenda, which is to oppose anything the conservatives say or suggest, no matter how reasonable it may be.

And --- from where I'm sitting, which is a reassuringly long way away (I'm a big fan of the Atlantic Ocean) --- they seem to make more noise than secularist conservatives and religious liberals put together.

Not true at all. I don't follow politics in Europe very closely, but in the US, it's the liberals that are the screamers and whiners. The liberals never seem to have a plan or solution to anything at all. It really does seem like they're only reason for being is to stop whatever the conservatives are planning. I think that's the real reason that the Republicans have risen to power recently. If the Democrats would put forth a reasonable candidate with a cohesive plan to save the country, I would vote for him/her.

Try joining the ACLU, or something.

Hell no!! Those people are freaks!!


I don't blame you for thinking the US is a crazy place. The only news that makes it to Europe is the garbage from the extreme right and extreme left. Jerry Falwell? Does anyone actually listen to Jerry Falwell, or Michael Moore for that matter? The only people that I know that went to see Fahrenheit 9/11, went becaue they wanted to see what all the fuss what about and came back saying it was a piece of ◊◊◊◊. Does anyone actually listen to the news anymore for that matter? People around here are so sick of the sensationalistic garbage spewed by the press that they've stopped reading the newspapers and watching the news. At least talk radio is entertaining, if more than a bit biased.

Despite what you may have heard, I would guess that at least 51% of the population in the US is reasonable. That's pretty good when you think about it.

 

[RandFan]

I don't blame you for thinking the US is a crazy place.

Remember. we make a really good tuna fish sandwich, mmmmm.....

 

[Z]

Don't forget - Carolina pulled-pork barbecue on a Kaiser roll with cole-slaw on top. Mmm-mmm good!

 

[Bruce]

Buffalo meatloaf - the conservationists did something right.

 

[Yahweh]

The only people that I know that went to see Fahrenheit 9/11, went becaue they wanted to see what all the fuss what about and came back saying it was a piece of ◊◊◊◊.

The movie was so-so, but the soundtracked was awesome!

Hell no!! Those people are freaks!!

Quick question: what is so frightening about the ACLU?

 

[arthwollipot]

The only people that I know that went to see Fahrenheit 9/11, went becaue they wanted to see what all the fuss what about and came back saying it was a piece of ◊◊◊◊.

I thought Bowling for Columbine was a better documentary. F 9/11 kind of went to pieces in the middle, and it didn't have as strong an ending.

 

[H3LL]

Here's an interesting read.

USA fundamentalism. Nothing to see here folks...Move along...Move along...

Soldiers of Christ: Inside America's Most Powerful Megachurch

Could it be secularists are trying to stop a tank with a fruit knife?

In a world like that where logic, reason, evidence and facts have no place, what can one do?

 

[lumos]

Since when did "liberal" become a dirty word? It means to be free and support ideals of democracy. It's only since the Republicans have implemented a smear campaign to rate any Democrat a 2nd class citizen. (There's some of your moral fiber.) I am still shocked that 51% of the American public elected a president who constantly mocked and insulted his opponent like a child. The Republilcans won the last election because of their appeal to the religious majority.

The ACLU is a fine organization that stands up for individual rights and defends the US Constitution. Bruce says these people are freaks? So anybody who opposes the church should be destroyed in any way possible.

Secularists govern based on reality instead of some imaginary concept of life. Which type do you want governing your nation?

 

[Dr Adequate]

True, but the liberals also have an agenda, which is to oppose anything the conservatives say or suggest, no matter how reasonable it may be.

Well, that's one interpretation of their motivation.

Liberal [off] : True, but the conservatives also have an agenda, which is to oppose anything that the liberals say or suggest, no matter how reasonable it may be.

Right.

It's because of psychobabble like this that I don't post on the politics forum.

I seem to be rather more "liberal" than your liberals. Things I like: the National Health Service, the ban on handguns, the abolition of the death penalty... need I go on? Well colour me pink. But you can hardly attribute these ideas to a supposed kneejerk reaction on my part to the British right as represented by the Conservative Party, because, of course, they don't disagree with me. If I agree with your liberals on their opinion of GWB and his cronies, and I do, then I'm not complaining --- I'm laughing at you. Your country is being run --- into the ground, could I point out --- by a halfwit. Mine isn't. We also have better beer, hardly any fundies, and a more developed sense of irony. (The last two are of course causally linked.)

I think what I'm trying to say here is that the War Of Independence was a huge mistake.



Bow before your redcoat overlords.

Not true at all. I don't follow politics in Europe very closely, but in the US, it's the liberals that are the screamers and whiners.

It's another of those irregular verbs, isn't it?

I am identifying a serious contemporary social evil.
You complain too much.
He is a screamer and a whiner.

The liberals never seem to have a plan or solution to anything at all. It really does seem like they're only reason for being is to stop whatever the conservatives are planning. I think that's the real reason that the Republicans have risen to power recently.

This seems profoundly confused with respect to chronology. When the Democrats lost power, it was of course after a prolonged period of the Republicans:

(a) trying to obstruct everything the Democrats tried to do
(b) behaving like dogs.

Hell no!! Those people are freaks!!

The ACLU? What's wrong with them? And who else have you got?

 

[Gestahl]

When you listen to left-wing secularists talk, you would swear that Amercia is headed for a theocracy, that Christians are a dominant force in society, that the Republicans are trampling on our freedoms, that GWB in imposing his religious views on a frightened public, and that Secularist are a humble , dying minority, being trampled by the Christian Juggernaut.

When you listen to right-wing religious conservatives, you would swear that secularism rules the country, that the media wontonly bashes the poor Christians for no good reason, that Christians are a dying breed, a shrinking minority in wake of the overwhelming Secularist movement, and the GWB is the last knight in an age that is soon to be forgotten.

The melodrama is nauseating.

What are your views? I'll share mine later. Goodnight.

The fundamentalist sect of conservatives try to force everyone to play by their morality, dictated by dubious interpretations of one book. Liberals try to remove morality that is not primarily social pragmatism (murder, theft, etc.) from the law.

One of these wants to give the government more power, control, and makes more things illegal for everyone. One does not. One of these is an example of the democratic, secular philosophy that founded this nation (despite what the revisionist Christians try to spin), and one of them isn't.

The simple fact is that the religious are a huge majority in this nation, and the church still has the final say on morality in most people's opinions. Why we feel the need to legislate morality when the behavior doesn't affect anyone not a willing party to it is anyone's guess.

The Christians feel the way they do because secualrism *is* and *should be* running this country. The Christians aren't a dying breed, but laws that are enacted because of religious belief in general are. The secularists feel the way they do because, if you take the fundamentalist message at face value, that is exactly what they want to do: make this a Christian nation. That would be a theocracy.

 

[Yahweh]

When the Democrats lost power, it was of course after a prolonged period of the Republicans:

(a) trying to obstruct everything the Democrats tried to do
(b) behaving like dogs.

The Democrats officially lost power in the 2002 midterms, so add to that:

(c) patriotic ferver after 9/11

 

[arthwollipot]

I'd just like to add that in Australian politics, the Liberal Party is conservative, the Labour party is liberal, the Democrats are for a Republic and the Greens are... well...

 

[Bruce]

Since when did "liberal" become a dirty word?

I think it was after "bitch" became a dirty word, but before "carbs" became a dirty word. It was probably about the same time "conservative" and "fundamentalist" became dirty words.

It means to be free and support ideals of democracy.

No, this is what it used to mean.

It's only since the Republicans have implemented a smear campaign

Ack. Had to stop reading right there. Yes, those evil Republicans doing a "smear campaign" agains those innocent and just Democrats. Please.

The ACLU is a fine organization that stands up for individual rights

I've seen too many examples of the ACLU standing up for the rights of criminals at the expense of innocent people to believe that the ACLU can be trusted with MY individual freedom. No time to look up links at the moment. I'll be back.

So anybody who opposes the church should be destroyed in any way possible.

I'm sure this is what the ACLU believes.

Secularists govern based on reality instead of some imaginary concept of life. Which type do you want governing your nation?

Secularists have their own twisted view of reality. Which would I want to govern my nation? Neither. I would prefer to shape my own government and make everyone see things the way I see them, but Santa keeps bringing me coal instead.

It's because of psychobabble like this that I don't post on the politics forum [/B]

But you just, you.......ugh, never mind.

It's another of those irregular verbs, isn't it?[/B]

It's exactly this sort of nit-picking elitist, imperialistic snobbery that we fought against in the first place. And we can still kick your asses, even if 49% of us would rather fight for you. Go USA!

This seems profoundly confused with respect to chronology. When the Democrats lost power, it was of course after a prolonged period of the Republicans:

(a) trying to obstruct everything the Democrats tried to do
(b) behaving like dogs.[/B]

And that gives the Democrats an excuse to behave the same way now? [child's voice] Well......THEY started it![/child's voice]

The ACLU? What's wrong with them? And who else have you got?[/B]

Myself and my own personal arsenal, thanks to the Republicans.


I grew up in a small town of kind, generous, resouceful people. I didn't know they were ignorant, racist, flag-waving, red-necked bigots until I went to college. Real eye opener.

Ignorant, eh? I'd like to see a "survive off the land" contest between and Cambridge graduate in Agricultural Science and any one of the family farmers I grew up with. Here's a bag of seeds and a field. Go.

Racist? Bigots? There was only one time I heard of a cross burning in my home town. The neighbors of the black family (yes, white folks) guarded their house every night with their shotguns and rifles until the offender was caught. He was sent to jail for a couple of years and never had the guts to return to our community.

But Michael Moore gets to keep making movies?

 

[Tony]

The fundamentalist sect of conservatives try to force everyone to play by their morality, dictated by dubious interpretations of one book. Liberals try to remove morality that is not primarily social pragmatism (murder, theft, etc.) from the law.

Yep. No matter how much they may claim to support personal freedom, it's clear from their actions that conservatives have a fundamental hatred for any personal freedom that exists outside their biblical "morality".

One of these wants to give the government more power, control, and makes more things illegal for everyone. One does not.

To be fair, the liberals aren't always on the side of freedom. Their support for gun control and their advocating of more gun control is something they support that would work to give the government more power and take away freedom from the general public. Gun control makes a mockery of liberalism and I think it would be in their interests to abandon it altogether. Let such anti-personal freedom policies fester on the conservative side where they have a natural home.

One of these is an example of the democratic, secular philosophy that founded this nation (despite what the revisionist Christians try to spin), and one of them isn't.

Yep.

 

[Bikewer]

The (apparent) invigoration of the religious right has given more fuel to the "Dominionist" group of even-farther-right fundamentalists.

http://skepdic.com/ultrafundamentalism.html


These are the nice folks that want true theocracy. Will they ever achieve anything other than being labled a fringe group?

Will the increasing growth of Islam provide more fuel?

 

[Bruce]

As always, I vote for the lesser of two evils. I felt very dirty voting for Bush in these last two elections, but come on, Al Gore and John Kerry?! I thought maybe the Democrats had learned their lesson, but then they put Howard "Blaaaaargh!!!" Dean in charge.

Help me out here, Dems!! If you want the Republicans out of office, give me somebody I can vote for.

And if you say "Hilary Clinton", you get one of these: