Rejection

What a curious conversation. I can only assume that Stilicho is a Kzin :)
 
I'm assuming, based on his response to me in this thread, that he considers faith-based allegiance to be anything other than a reptillian social structure, where the young are born instinctively knowing how to survive independently, and the mother will EAT them if they don't scuttle away fast enough. Either that or he's daring people to agree with his nihilistic position because he intends to laugh at them once they do, saying it was all just a joke. I and others have explained how families, communities, and cooperation with larger orderings of things have survival and evolutionary benefits. It's a rational scientific explanation. How is this faith based?

If he's trying to argue that evolution and survival are based on faith, then I think I'm going to cry.
 
stilicho said:
PS: Please respond only if you can prove decisively that you have no faith-based allegiance to any social unit.
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Well, I don't, but of course I can't prove it to you over teh internets, but you already knew that, which is why you framed your OP that way, right?

So that's my response. Basically calling you a coward. Philosophically speaking, I mean -- which, as I understand from numerous threads on this real estate can be totally divorced from the world we all actually live in.

How's that?
 
stilicho said:
Of course we all reject magic and religion. They aren't scientific and employ the methods of charlatans.

So we also reject all ideas that cannot bear scrutiny.

We have no national identity because patriotism and nationalism are simply mystical concepts that have no basis in empiricism. We also reject the political philosophies of communism and democracy because they cannot survive under the knife.

What's left? It could or would be nihilism--the rejection of everything--but that would be untruthful because science has determined that things do exist.

Is it any wonder that scepticism is foundering among the waves of faith-based concepts such as a dedication to one's social units? Whether familial, national or transnational, faith-based alliances have worked to defeat scepticism throughout history. Religion has merely been replaced by other faith-based systems and we're all rather happy about it.

Aren't we?

PS: Please respond only if you can prove decisively that you have no faith-based allegiance to any social unit.
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Nothing faith based about support for democracy. There is a tsunami of perfectly good empirical evidence that it delivers a better life for more people than do other systems.

We are a social animal and depend upon society - so we choose the model that works best in practice. Where does the faith come in?
 
Robin said:
Nothing faith based about support for democracy. There is a tsunami of perfectly good empirical evidence that it delivers a better life for more people than do other systems.

We are a social animal and depend upon society - so we choose the model that works best in practice. Where does the faith come in?
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That's OK: there is nothing faith-based about support for family, friends, or community either. Communities developed as groups of people learned they could do a lot more through cooperation then they could individually. It is empirically demonstrable not only for humans but for other species as well. You won't find too many faith-based ant hills, I don't think.
 
stilicho said:
So, in your humble opinion, patriotism is not based on faith.
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Hell, yes.

It's based on social bonds. The need for in-group and out-group distinctions. The same thing that made the Jets hang out together against the Sharks.
 
stilicho said:
Why have we humans retained faith in abstracts such as families, municipalities and states? That's pretty mystical. A reasoning human being has the privilege of rejecting all such nonsense.
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In what ways are families, municipalities and states abstract? And how are they even remotely mystical?

I don't have faith in my family. Faith is belief without evidence. I have evidence based trust in the majority of my family. There are, however, a few members of my family in whom I have very little trust regarding certain matters. As examples: I have trust based on years of experience that I can rely on my wife whenever I need her help. She, on the other hand, does not have the same sort of trust in her father, again based on past evidence.

I have similar trust in certain aspects of my municipality and state. These are simply mutually beneficial organizations of people with some level of geographic location in common. Some years back I changed my geographic location and moved from one city/state to another with barely a ripple in my life regarding the benefits offered by both. I still had electricity, water, roads, services etc. Just because some people choose to make quasi-religious constructs of their families, cities, states etc. it does not follow that those things are naturally "mystical" in nature. After all, someone could dogmatically declare faith in scientific authorities without any real understanding of the methodology of science. This would in no way invalidate the scientific method as a logical system.
 
Foster Zygote said:
I have similar trust in certain aspects of my municipality and state. These are simply mutually beneficial organizations of people with some level of geographic location in common. Some years back I changed my geographic location and moved from one city/state to another with barely a ripple in my life regarding the benefits offered by both. I still had electricity, water, roads, services etc.
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And to amplify -- not only do you have the geographic location in common, but you also have certain needs in common that are controlled or influenced by geography. You need roads --- but depending upon where you live, you may or may not need salt trucks to keep the roads snow-free in December (or July), or levees to keep the river from flooding your roads during the rainy season.

Your neighbors almost certainly have very similar needs.

Wouldn't it be nice if, rationally, we could create an organization to manage those needs for groups of similarly-situated people?

And we can call it a city, county, state or nation!
 
stilicho said:
PS: Please respond only if you can prove decisively that you have no faith-based allegiance to any social unit.
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My allegiance to my country is not faith-based, it's based on self-interest. It's also limited and conditional.

My allegiance to my friends is based on the relationships we've developed over the years. It's also limited and conditional.

My "allegiance" to my employer is based on self-interest. It's conditional and even more limited than the ones above.

You are, like many people, confusing "is" concepts and "should" concepts. "God exists" is a fact claim. "We should be nice to each other" is a value judgement. Value judgements are not based in empiricism, and I don't know of anyone who claims they are.
 
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