Reincarnation data & modelling

[SirPhilip]

Through A Time-Frame Darkly..

I don't see that there is anything more to free will than an ability to make mistakes and second guessing yourself. Perhaps you could provide an counter-example?

What, having a degree of free will? Unless you believe in hard determinism, then we aren't in disagreement.

"Don't call me a mindless philosopher,
you overweight glob of grease.." - C-3PO

Secondly, intelligence and introspection are now far more important skills than they have ever been. Sure a *insert-politically-correct-word-here* might be able to survive due to societies good graces but it will severely restrict their choice in mate and their ability to provide for their children.

The problem is, what constitutes "human" is an exchange between base instincts and more recently developed behaviors. In a far flung brave new world scenario, issues of motivation would arise also, even if we became cyborgs.

You can scratch the oxy part of the above sentence. No one actually thinks that. They just disagree about the meaning of the word mind. Yup, and I'm arguing that this ambiguous quality is due to our tendency to make mistakes and our ability to second guess ourselves.

Making mistakes and second guessing is only simple learning gymnastics, and could be simulated by home computers today. In humans, you have complex social/sexual motivations, as well as even higher philsophical factors which influence your behavior. The higher the intelligence, the less deterministic behavior becomes. Keep in mind here we're not talking about absolutes, rather degrees and catalyst. Yes, intelligent human behavior is deterministic, but less so than, for example, an orangutan. Nonlinear creative thinking requires a fine interplay between intuitive/associative thinking and logic, which are mutually exclusive. Intelligence isn't as simple as evolving faster information storage and cognition.

I don't know that the pinball analogy is incorrect. I can see it possibly being unhelpful in some cases, but not misleading. On the other hand while the idea of the soul is often a convenient shorthand, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." it can be incredibly misleading in others.

Well, if human behavior is ultimately deterministic, that is, impelled by rational causes, what explains irrational ideas and behavior? Also, determinism has a direct relationship to time-variance. You could only, if you had a degree of omnisciencent intelligence, predict with a reasonable degree of probability into the near future. Like a light cone, the farther into time you attempted to make a determination, the higher the degree of uncertainty.

 

[SirPhilip]

Sorry SirPhilip, but your posts read like a rejected "Matrix" script. You're saying very little, of very little import, with many, many words.

The more ambiguous the topic, the less clear and volumous the dialogue. Determinism and free will is a classic philosophical issue, and indeterminism difficult to conceptualize. I'll try to be more concise - do you have anything to add, though?

 

[Jekyll]

What, having a degree of free will? Unless you believe in hard determinism, then we aren't in disagreement.

"Don't call me a mindless philosopher,
you overweight glob of grease.." - C-3PO

The problem is, what constitutes "human" is an exchange between base instincts and more recently developed behaviors. In a far flung brave new world scenario, issues of motivation would arise also, even if we became cyborgs.

Making mistakes and second guessing is only simple learning gymnastics, and could be simulated by home computers today. In humans, you have complex social/sexual motivations, as well as even higher philsophical factors which influence your behavior. The higher the intelligence, the less deterministic behavior becomes. Keep in mind here we're not talking about absolutes, rather degrees and catalyst. Yes, intelligent human behavior is deterministic, but less so than, for example, an orangutan. Nonlinear creative thinking requires a fine interplay between intuitive/associative thinking and logic, which are mutually exclusive. Intelligence isn't as simple as evolving faster information storage and cognition.

Well, if human behavior is ultimately deterministic, that is, impelled by rational causes, what explains irrational ideas and behavior? Also, determinism has a direct relationship to time-variance. You could only, if you had a degree of omnisciencent intelligence, predict with a reasonable degree of probability into the near future. Like a light cone, the farther into time you attempted to make a determination, the higher the degree of uncertainty.

I think you're confusing things being deterministic with them being predictable. Pinball is an excellent analogy here; just because the behaviour of the ball on a fixed table (no flippers) is fixed in stone as soon as the ball is released onto the table, that doesn't mean we know where it's going to go without watching.
Irrational ideas and behaviour can be summed up as mistakes which you have already agreed could be demonstrated by deterministic computers.

 

[Cuddles]

Whacha' gonna do, snuggles, if I don't.

I'll assume you're a lying idiot who is incapable of forming a coherent argument.

The more meaningless the topic, the less clear and volumous the dialogue. Determinism and free will is a classic philosophical issue, and indeterminism difficult to conceptualize. I'll try to be more concise - do you have anything to add, though?

Fixed it for you.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Too late! I've already found a very accurate model for reincarnation, and I've found someone to help you modify the model:
[qimg]http://www.wildlife-pictures-online.com/image-files/dung-beetle_8470_blog.jpg[/qimg]

Hope this helps.

LLH

Well, it helped clarify your position on reincarnation, but sadly did nothing whatsoever to discuss peoples' claims of reincarnation.

 

[SirPhilip]

Well, it helped clarify your position on reincarnation, but sadly did nothing whatsoever to discuss peoples' claims of reincarnation.

Well, if it makes you feel better, I'm starting to believe previously you existed as a mainframe used in statistical analysis from the 1970's but posessed by a retarded ghost.

 

[SirPhilip]

Irrational ideas and behaviour can be summed up as mistakes which you have already agreed could be demonstrated by deterministic computers.

They can also serve as the precusor to rational insight, as in the case of Einstein imagining himself riding on a lightwave before ever formulating a coherent theory, and without which intelligence wouldn't be possible. Of course, Einstein riding on his bike at the time in the sun could have been the cause - that doesn't change the context or make it's essence deterministic.

 

[SirPhilip]

When I unplug my computer, it loses its "mind." I figure something similar happens with humans.

A computer can be turned back on. Humans can't.

 

[SirPhilip]

I'll assume you're a lying idiot who is incapable of forming a coherent argument.

Snuggles, you gutless womble. Tell me my cuddly bottom quivering mass of a pretty purple gelatin cuteness, what you have contributed here. Lest I spank your botsy-wotsy purple bottom and hurl you into the abyss of unlimited unspecialness for an indeterminate amount of time. Yes.

[Flushy-flushy]

Fixed it for you.

That's enough, quiggly wiggly. Apologise right now. No hugs for you today.

(If this is a chick, I'm going to crack up..)

 

[Yahzi]

Snuggles, you gutless womble. Tell me my cuddly bottom quivering mass of a pretty purple gelatin cuteness, what you have contributed here. Lest I spank your botsy-wotsy purple bottom and hurl you into the abyss of unlimited unspecialness for an indeterminate amount of time. Yes.

[Flushy-flushy]

Finally!

Man, I was beginning to think you'd never make any sense.

But I can comfortably state that the above paragraph is the most meaningful, insightful, and conceptually sound thing you've said in this entire thread.

 

[SirPhilip]

Finally! Man, I was beginning to think you'd never make any sense. But I can comfortably state that the above paragraph is the most meaningful, insightful, and conceptually sound thing you've said in this entire thread.

Well, if what I wrote was conceptually unsound, what is a conceptually sound alternative? Keeping in mind that free will being an actual illusion must imply by extension, the universe operates only by newtonian mechanics.

 

[Cuddles]

Well, if what I wrote was conceptually unsound, what is a conceptually sound alternative? Keeping in mind that free will being an actual illusion must imply by extension, the universe operates only by newtonian mechanics.

Only if you ignore relativity, quantum mechanics and chaos theory.

No hugs for you today.

No hugs?

Found some.

 

[Jekyll]

They can also serve as the precusor to rational insight, as in the case of Einstein imagining himself riding on a lightwave before ever formulating a coherent theory, and without which intelligence wouldn't be possible. Of course, Einstein riding on his bike at the time in the sun could have been the cause - that doesn't change the context or make it's essence deterministic.

Regarding Einstein's thought experiments, and taking the most generous view possible towards your argument; he speculated and then went back and filled in the details of the speculation confirming it. That's taking a chance that you might make a mistake and then testing your idea. There is no magic of irrationality going on here.

Taking a more precise view of it, his speculation arose from a noted contradiction between Newtonian physics and the properties of light as described by the Lorentz transformations (namely whether standing EM waves can exist or not) and was an inspired attempt to create a seamless fusion of the two systems.

 

[SirPhilip]

Pinball Wizard..

Only if you ignore relativity, quantum mechanics and chaos theory.

You can't have it both ways, you naughty purple bottom. Absolute determinism implies a conceptual and computational absolute. This is like saying there is a finite limit to the size of a number because 350,2320 comes after 2,335. You also have the question of this universe not accomodating all possible states of matter, which brings us to random radioactive decay. Yes.

 

[SirPhilip]

Regarding Einstein's thought experiments, and taking the most generous view possible towards your argument; he speculated and then went back and filled in the details of the speculation confirming it. That's taking a chance that you might make a mistake and then testing your idea. There is no magic of irrationality going on here.

It just served to illustrate nonlinear and linear thinking. Or using linear thinking to focus it. Whether we choose to use abstraction to complement logic or the opposite falls to personal motivation. It seems far more reasonable to assume it's existence simply correlates to how the universe ultimately behaves. If intelligence was only linear, it would be impossible to act without instructions given, or conceptualize abstraction.

 

[Cuddles]

You can't have it both ways, you naughty purple bottom. Absolute determinism implies a conceptual and computational absolute. This is like saying there is a finite limit to the size of a number because 350,2320 comes after 2,335. You also have the question of this universe not accomodating all possible states of matter, which brings us to random radioactive decay. Yes.

Now you've completely lost me. You claimed that free will implies that the universe is entirely Newtonian. I replied that this is not true because quantum physics and chaos theory allow free will while still being entirely deterministic. Your reply not only fails to address this, it fails to even be coherent.

 

[SirPhilip]

Now you've completely lost me. You claimed that free will implies that the universe is entirely Newtonian. I replied that this is not true because quantum physics and chaos theory allow free will while still being entirely deterministic. Your reply not only fails to address this, it fails to even be coherent.

I can't figure out if this is a troll or another misquote on your part. So I won't. Yes.