Reiki?

[Loss Leader]

My girlfriend was high school valedictorian, is a genius, and is an agnostic bordering on atheist. Why is she into this stuff?

Intelligence has nothing to do with the desire of the ego to feel safe about a world that can be controled just by wishing.

 

[tracer]

There is no problem. If you're acknowledging that having needles stuck in you is better than not having needles stuck in you (i.e. placebo), we're in agreement. I'm not looking to prove one acupuncturist is better than another.

One of the difficulties in setting up a true placebo trial of acupuncture is that people can tell when they're getting poked by needles.

However, there is a group out there that's trying to make workable "placebo needles" -- that is, needle-looking objects that make you think a needle is being stuck painlessly into your skin when in fact it isn't.

Have these been used in a double-blind trial yet?

 

[Stereolab]

However, there is a group out there that's trying to make workable "placebo needles" -- that is, needle-looking objects that make you think a needle is being stuck painlessly into your skin when in fact it isn't.

Have these been used in a double-blind trial yet?

I don't know, but that would certainly be a valid placebo and interesting to test.

 

[Cuddles]

There is no problem. If you're acknowledging that having needles stuck in you is better than not having needles stuck in you (i.e. placebo), we're in agreement. I'm not looking to prove one acupuncturist is better than another.

There is a big problem, which mainly seems to be that you don't understand what a placebo is. If there is no difference between real acupuncture and fake acupuncture (ie/ placebo), then there is no evidence that it works. If you claim that there is evidence that it works, you are claiming that there is a difference between real and fake. Therefore, your post where you claimed both that there is evidence and that there is no difference between acupuncture and placebo contains quite a serious contradiction.

One of the difficulties in setting up a true placebo trial of acupuncture is that people can tell when they're getting poked by needles.

However, there is a group out there that's trying to make workable "placebo needles" -- that is, needle-looking objects that make you think a needle is being stuck painlessly into your skin when in fact it isn't.

Have these been used in a double-blind trial yet?

Yes. Unfortunately they don't work very well. The two main problems are that people can tell the difference better than chance, and the fake needles often cause a reaction which implies that they aren't inactive, and therefore not a placebo. I've posted links about this in some old threads, I'll try to dig them up.

Edit:

The unfortunate problem with testing acupuncture is that there is no useful placebo. There are two main problems. The first is that there is a significant difference in perception between real needles and placebo ones, so the placebo may not be valid. The second is that placebo needles seem to have some effects that suggest they are not inactive and so if there actually is something to acupuncture, what is supposed to be placebo may actual have an active effect.

http://www.superdragon.co.uk/acupunc... needles.htm

The fact that more than a third of patients treated with the placebo needle experienced de qi did raise some concerns among the scientists, who said that the results of their experiment "· call into question the main claim of placebo needles that they only are eliciting a placebo response.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=9717924

FINDINGS: Of 60 volunteers, 54 felt a penetration with acupuncture (mean visual analogue scale [VAS] 13.4; SD 10.58) and 47 felt it with placebo (VAS 8.86; SD 10.55), 34 felt a dull pain sensation (DEQI) with acupuncture and 13 with placebo.

 

[Stereolab]

There is a big problem, which mainly seems to be that you don't understand what a placebo is. If there is no difference between real acupuncture and fake acupuncture (ie/ placebo), then there is no evidence that it works.

I understand perfectly what a placebo is. What you are apparently refusing to acknowledge is that I am not differentiating between what someone has labeled "real" and "sham" acupuncture. Both involve sticking needles into someone, and the article cites various ways in which sticking needles into someone may be beneficial. I have already stated I don't believe in Magical Chi Energy and anything else that only a "real" acupuncturist claims to be able to do.