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Regarding Franko...

wraith said:
Your choices have already been made.
Are you going to get your boss to tie your shoes for you?
I am aware that you can do this, but you wont if you perceive a more beneficial course of action. It's just not possible.
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The same way that it's impossible for me to stab myself with a fork?
The definition "to choose from a range of options" doesnt cut it, because ultiimately, you end up describing MPB.
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That's how we define free will. And yes, MPB is free will.
does 2 + 2 choose to equal 4?
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Do you choose to be stupid in public?
 
Just because I feel like nitpicking: 2+2 only equals 4 under certain conditions. This is the reason simple math is generally useless for describing real life. The premise needed for 2+2=4 to be true is that we are working with integers. Unfortunately, there arent too many integers in real life.

Hans
 
PixyMisa said:
The same way that it's impossible for me to stab myself with a fork?
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Why?
If you see a benefit to do so, then you will do it...

Why dont you use "free-will" and do it now

That's how we define free will. And yes, MPB is free will.
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No it's not...
MPB implies that your choices have already been made...
when you go to the crapper, the way that you interpret your experiences forces you to use toilet paper ;)

Do you use "free-will" to use sandpaper instead?

I am aware that you can physically do this, but you wont select this option. You may if you want to spite me. But then, thats the perceived benefit...
:cool:

Do you choose to be stupid in public?
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do you? :cool:
 
MRC_Hans said:
Just because I feel like nitpicking: 2+2 only equals 4 under certain conditions. This is the reason simple math is generally useless for describing real life. The premise needed for 2+2=4 to be true is that we are working with integers. Unfortunately, there arent too many integers in real life.

Hans
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What are the different answers that 2+2 can have under different conditions?
 
What are the different answers that 2+2 can have under different conditions?
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Are you serious? Imagine the numbers to be non-integers. What is the range of the non-integer 2? And non-integer 4? Come on, you can do it!

Hans
 
wraith said:
Why?
If you see a benefit to do so, then you will do it...
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In other words, MPB is free will.
Why dont you use "free-will" and do it now
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Done! More free will!
No it's not...
MPB implies that your choices have already been made...
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No. It implies that the choices that you make are the choices that you make. Fate might imply that your choices have already been made, but you seem to have gone off Fate.
when you go to the crapper, the way that you interpret your experiences forces you to use toilet paper

Do you use "free-will" to use sandpaper instead?
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No, I keep a box of dead bunnies on hand. Lovely and soft.
I am aware that you can physically do this, but you wont select this option. You may if you want to spite me. But then, thats the perceived benefit...
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In other words, MPB says that the choice you make is the choice you make. MPB is free will.
do you?
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Clearly I do not.
 
Just out of curiousity, wraith:

What is the benefit that any of us see in debating you?

It is rather obvious from your posts that you won't change your mind. So why do we keep debating you? Most of us would probably see more benefit in reading a good book, going to the cinema, reading the news, or something else. But according to you, we debate you because we find it the action most beneficial at the time (maximum perceived benefit). So what is the benefit?
 
wraith said:


lol
I was referring to the road rules that Tricky was talking about ie No U-turns

not TLOP
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O.K. Sorry, my mistake.

wraith said:

ahhh excellent question

The way that you act, is based on your MPB, which is a reflection of your soul/intrinsic nature...
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So, it means that the LG has no responsability on our intrinsic nature?? Then, she is not so powerful as I thought.

Imagine an intrinsic evil soul (a killer), who is responsible for his actions in this Universe?? The LG, who controls and determines every thing here, or this evil guy???
 
In other words, MPB is free will.
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Sure … if you believe that Excel, or your web browser program also has “free will”.

MPB is an algorithm nitwit, or do you only hear what doesn’t conflict with your religious beliefs?

No. It implies that the choices that you make are the choices that you make. Fate might imply that your choices have already been made, but you seem to have gone off Fate.
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Pixydust you make “choices” in the same way that a computer program makes “choices” … although to hear you and the A-Theists tell it, you make “choices” via the magic of QM “Uncertainty”.

Ooooooo … :rolleyes:

In other words, MPB says that the choice you make is the choice you make. MPB is free will.
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Yeah, and ultimately there won’t be any consequences for your actions because you are going to cease to exist.
 
wraith said:
When I was 4, I didnt know how, so I needed somebody else to tie them for me. Thats the maximum perceived benefit.
If I did know how, then I would have tied them myself, since that would have been the maximum perceived benefit.
Why dont you get someone to tie your shoes now?
Why didnt I use "free-will" to tie them when I was 4?
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Using the definition I have provided (numerous times), Free Will is the ability to choose between available, perceived options, you were not able to tie your shoes, so that was not an available option. As I have said, free will increases as you learn and mature.


Whatever "choice" that you made, was at the time the maximum perceived benefit. If you knew that the "choice" would lead to a non-beneficial outcome, then you wouldnt have made that choice.
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You can continue to repeat, "whatever you chose was your MPB" and I can say "whatever you chose was free will". As Misa has pointed out, even by your own description, the two concepts are nearly identical. There is one variation, which I will address in a moment.



It's because that you dont perceive a benefit if you spoke to me in french.
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But I did speak to you in French, therefore your conclusion is incorrect. Now admittedly I did not and could not speak to you in Mandarin. That is because I don't know Mandarin. It is not an available option. If I learned Mandarin, then I would have that option, thus increasing my free will.



well actually, you perceived a benefit in doing so.
You wanted to rebel against authority. You wanted to stick it to your boss and get one back for the Trickster lol. It made you feel good perhaps.
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Correct. Again, I perceived a benefit, so I chose it. MPB = free will.



You could have either obeyed the rules or not. You didnt obey the rules, because that was the most perceived benefit. Like I said before, you probably wanted to be rebellious...
trying to show of to a pretty las hey?
haha
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Well, there is no doubt that showing off for the opposite sex has caused more bad decisions than almost anything else, but in this case no. There were no women present. Besides, I'm happily married.


There are 100s of things that you could have "chosen" to do. But the way that you interpret your experiences, forces one real path.
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So you say. The parking lot episode gives evidence that coersion does not always result in the "logical" choice. Do you have any evidence that coersion by the LG is effective? If so, let's see it.



actually if you tally the points up, free-will yields 0 :eek:
what are you saying? That I should sacrifice logic for "creativity"? haha RIGHT!
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I'm not saying you should do anything. I'm saying you choose for yourself what to do. Maybe it's a good choice, maybe bad. Personally, I think you have made some bad choices on these boards which have caused you to be humiliated by Misa and others. I cannot fathom why you perceive a benefit in encouraging people to lose respect for you. But such is the nature of free will.



free-will cant even be defined.
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I have given you my definition. That is the only definition I am arguing. I understand that you don't accept my definition. You may debate whether or not my definition is correct, but to claim I haven't defined it is... a bad move by your free will.



You have gotten stronger, not free-will. Your MPB has evolved.
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And this is different how?
-----------
Now, I have a request that will help demonstrate the difference between MPB and free will. Think of a number between 1 and 100.
 
Franko, I'd like to ask you the same question that I asked wraith:

What is the benefit that any of us see in debating you?

It is rather obvious from your posts that you won't change your mind. So why do we keep debating you? Most of us would probably see more benefit in reading a good book, going to the cinema, reading the news, or something else. But according to you, we debate you because we find it the action most beneficial at the time (maximum perceived benefit). So what is the benefit?
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Watcher said:
Franko, I'd like to ask you the same question that I asked wraith:
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Interesting. Your MPB has sent here to these forums, and this one in particular. After reading and taking what your MPB decided was applicable, have you seen, or do you now see "free will" making any decision; or is it just your algorithm running?
 
hammegk said:


Interesting. Your MPB has sent here to these forums, and this one in particular. After reading and taking what your MPB decided was applicable, have you seen, or do you now see "free will" making any decision; or is it just your algorithm running?
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Hammy, are you saying that you are a biological chat bot? you have no control over what you type on this forum? It is all pre determined?
 
Watcher said:
Just out of curiousity, wraith:

What is the benefit that any of us see in debating you?

It is rather obvious from your posts that you won't change your mind. So why do we keep debating you? Most of us would probably see more benefit in reading a good book, going to the cinema, reading the news, or something else. But according to you, we debate you because we find it the action most beneficial at the time (maximum perceived benefit). So what is the benefit?
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Youre asking me to explain your perceived benefit?
:rolleyes:

Ultimately, you see a benefit by responding to my posts. You seek the destruction of my beliefs. It will make you feel better about your own...
 
Upchurch said:

How's that new? wraith's sockpuppet status was established nearly from the beginning and confirmed by his appearence on www.deism.org (where his word usage and behavior was exactly that of Franko's).

Upchurch
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you should really change that avatar Churchy
;)
 
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