epepke
Philosopher
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2003
- Messages
- 9,264
Archon1 said:
Nah. It won't make you happy. But all is not lost. You can play thumb-in-the-sphincter with Penn Jillette and derive everything from libertarian first-principles and come up with smarmy put-downs, safe and secure in the fact that nobody will ever put you in charge of anything having to do with public sanitation.
epepke said:
I was being sarcastic. The tax placed on recyclables has nothing to do with the trash along the road. The amount of trash along the road has more to do with peoples attitudes than anything. People who litter don't do so based on weather or not they can recycle something or not. They throw it all on the road without care.
epepke said:
That's great because I'm definately not qualified for that position.
Brazilwood
There is a non-gun use for rare trees, the pernambuco wood used for violin bows. There was an article in a recent Smithsoinian about how the bow makers, bow users, and tree-cutters are starting to talk. The tree-farmers are hampered by botany. The best bows are made from the oldest trees, and they can't be easily grown. The economy of the tree-cutter is extinct if the tree is not grown. The bow is not made without the tree. We should save the old trees, and study their life-cycle. It is an ongoing, yet unsuccessful, industry to create a synthetic violin bow. The best efforts are made from a carbon-fiber process, and they are quite good. But nobody yet has said that we have successfully reproduced the charactersitics of a pernambuco bow. Call the Lorax.
There is a non-gun use for rare trees, the pernambuco wood used for violin bows. There was an article in a recent Smithsoinian about how the bow makers, bow users, and tree-cutters are starting to talk. The tree-farmers are hampered by botany. The best bows are made from the oldest trees, and they can't be easily grown. The economy of the tree-cutter is extinct if the tree is not grown. The bow is not made without the tree. We should save the old trees, and study their life-cycle. It is an ongoing, yet unsuccessful, industry to create a synthetic violin bow. The best efforts are made from a carbon-fiber process, and they are quite good. But nobody yet has said that we have successfully reproduced the charactersitics of a pernambuco bow. Call the Lorax.
ktesibios
Worthless Aging Hippie
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
- Messages
- 1,493
There's something about aluminum can recycling in Henry Petroski's The Evolution of Useful Things.
IIRC, Petroski says that something like 85% of aluminum cans are recycled and the cycle time is as little as 6 weeks (the book was written in the early '90s so the numbers are very likely different now).
The abundance of aluminum in the earth's crust isn't really what controls whether recycling cans is worthwhile. What you need to look at is the relative cost of mining and refining aluminum (refining uses a lot of electrical energy) versus the cost of melting down and re-refining used cans.
The fact that so many cans are recycled suggests that it has some economic advantages for the can manufacturer.
BTW, the collection and re-use of other scrap metals has been a profitable industry since long before the word "recycling" was coined. The next time you have any plumbing work done, ask the plumber what they do with old copper pipe ripped out of a job site.
IIRC, Petroski says that something like 85% of aluminum cans are recycled and the cycle time is as little as 6 weeks (the book was written in the early '90s so the numbers are very likely different now).
The abundance of aluminum in the earth's crust isn't really what controls whether recycling cans is worthwhile. What you need to look at is the relative cost of mining and refining aluminum (refining uses a lot of electrical energy) versus the cost of melting down and re-refining used cans.
The fact that so many cans are recycled suggests that it has some economic advantages for the can manufacturer.
BTW, the collection and re-use of other scrap metals has been a profitable industry since long before the word "recycling" was coined. The next time you have any plumbing work done, ask the plumber what they do with old copper pipe ripped out of a job site.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Here we have a split bin truck. Metals, glass, etc, one side of bin, paper the other side.
There might be plenty of space for landfill, but you have to drive the trucks there, (what was that about waste of fuel?),
and no-one actually wants a new landfill near them, no matter where they live. The local politician knows if he lets the landfill go ahead, he loses his seat, etc.
You can put it out in the desert, if you have one, but once again, you have to pay the cost of getting it there, and staffing it, and digging it, and filling it...
The cost of recycling is not just the cost of the act itself, it is also the cost of not doing it.
One of the bulkiest landfill items is the disposable babies' nappy. Some genious has come up with a way to recycle them, believe it or not.
There might be plenty of space for landfill, but you have to drive the trucks there, (what was that about waste of fuel?),
and no-one actually wants a new landfill near them, no matter where they live. The local politician knows if he lets the landfill go ahead, he loses his seat, etc.
You can put it out in the desert, if you have one, but once again, you have to pay the cost of getting it there, and staffing it, and digging it, and filling it...
The cost of recycling is not just the cost of the act itself, it is also the cost of not doing it.
One of the bulkiest landfill items is the disposable babies' nappy. Some genious has come up with a way to recycle them, believe it or not.
Follow up on Brazilwood and violin bows
Re-reading this thread, I realize that my comments may have been ambiguous. There is a very good substitute for old-growth tropical hardwood in the case of violin bows.
I own a fairly expensive bow, and can give first-hand information (literally) about how that bow, and bows like it, are different from cheaper bows. The difference is in the material used, pernambuco wood.
I have played with other bows, and this is where I am happy. The carbon-fiber copies of fine wood bows are approaching the ideal. For most people's purposes, there should not be a lot of pernambuco-wood-cutting in the Amazon. Most little kids that want to play fiddle will be happy with a synthetic bow. Make millions of them! I actually use a synthetic bow for most everyday purposes.
But if and when I need my good bow, I'm glad I have it, and I'm glad there's a market for it, and I'm glad I could go buy another if I need one. It may be a small market, and if it has a "niche" so be it... but it seems strange that I might be viewed as a despoiler of nature if I participate in the market. The idea that classical string players are ruining the rainforest by buying bows seems just a little much. I don't think anyone is directly saying that, but it's a little like 'your fur coat is leading to extinction' sort of thinking.
I don't know, really. Maybe we can have synthetics for everything, eventually. For now, it seems to me like there are some reasons that mankind can still use a tree, or some other organic thing, and not be guilty of some sort of moral transgression.
Re-reading this thread, I realize that my comments may have been ambiguous. There is a very good substitute for old-growth tropical hardwood in the case of violin bows.
I own a fairly expensive bow, and can give first-hand information (literally) about how that bow, and bows like it, are different from cheaper bows. The difference is in the material used, pernambuco wood.
I have played with other bows, and this is where I am happy. The carbon-fiber copies of fine wood bows are approaching the ideal. For most people's purposes, there should not be a lot of pernambuco-wood-cutting in the Amazon. Most little kids that want to play fiddle will be happy with a synthetic bow. Make millions of them! I actually use a synthetic bow for most everyday purposes.
But if and when I need my good bow, I'm glad I have it, and I'm glad there's a market for it, and I'm glad I could go buy another if I need one. It may be a small market, and if it has a "niche" so be it... but it seems strange that I might be viewed as a despoiler of nature if I participate in the market. The idea that classical string players are ruining the rainforest by buying bows seems just a little much. I don't think anyone is directly saying that, but it's a little like 'your fur coat is leading to extinction' sort of thinking.
I don't know, really. Maybe we can have synthetics for everything, eventually. For now, it seems to me like there are some reasons that mankind can still use a tree, or some other organic thing, and not be guilty of some sort of moral transgression.
SkepticPete
Student
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2004
- Messages
- 33
I would be interested to know how the pernambuco wood differs from the carbon-fibre synthetic material? In practical or acoustic terms?
If the bow is the same weight and balance and has enough strength to hold the hair? tight........why do you prefer it?
Does it feel different or sound different?
Cheers
Pete
If the bow is the same weight and balance and has enough strength to hold the hair? tight........why do you prefer it?
Does it feel different or sound different?
Cheers
Pete
Excellent questions, the answers are generally "yes."
The fine wood bows have a "springy-ness" that is easily felt. I would call it a resonant frequency based on the density and overall tensile strength of the wood. This is in combination with the horse-hair, rosin, string, and "box." So of course we're talking about a great bow, with great bow hair, pure rosin, a string that vibrates well in all its overtones, and an instrument that resonates. Plus a player that can feel/hear and react to adjust the various vectors of weight and speed that drive the resonance.
There was some great research done in Iowa by Carl Seashore on the physics of violin, in the 1930s. This is not a "woo" topic, but it can easily be made "woo." I'm certain that some readers here can chime in... the magic of the Strads (boxes) or the miracle of the vectors (players).
Re. the bows, I'm sure it comes down to the ability to transmit the forces of the player in combination with the ability of the bow stick to resonate back to the pads of the fingers, in all frequencies. A 'dead' bow will affect a sensitive player.
The fine wood bows have a "springy-ness" that is easily felt. I would call it a resonant frequency based on the density and overall tensile strength of the wood. This is in combination with the horse-hair, rosin, string, and "box." So of course we're talking about a great bow, with great bow hair, pure rosin, a string that vibrates well in all its overtones, and an instrument that resonates. Plus a player that can feel/hear and react to adjust the various vectors of weight and speed that drive the resonance.
There was some great research done in Iowa by Carl Seashore on the physics of violin, in the 1930s. This is not a "woo" topic, but it can easily be made "woo." I'm certain that some readers here can chime in... the magic of the Strads (boxes) or the miracle of the vectors (players).
Re. the bows, I'm sure it comes down to the ability to transmit the forces of the player in combination with the ability of the bow stick to resonate back to the pads of the fingers, in all frequencies. A 'dead' bow will affect a sensitive player.
Double blind bow test
I would love to correspond with anyone who could propose a design for a double-blind bow test.
I know many owners of fine wood bows and I could arrange to have the corresponding synthetic bows.
This would be a fun experiment. How many bows/players would we need to have a very tight design? 4x4? Maybe only 2x2?
Let's propose a truly tight design. I think I have the resources to get it done.
Warning: It might be hard to control for the instrument. We would have to use the same instrument, under identical conditions of string wear, humidity, etc. One might ask the player afterwards to describe the qualities of the experience of playing with the bows. Consider order effects, a player might "warm up" and like the later bows anyway.
But I think it's possible to do this, and controls are not impossible.
I would love to correspond with anyone who could propose a design for a double-blind bow test.
I know many owners of fine wood bows and I could arrange to have the corresponding synthetic bows.
This would be a fun experiment. How many bows/players would we need to have a very tight design? 4x4? Maybe only 2x2?
Let's propose a truly tight design. I think I have the resources to get it done.
Warning: It might be hard to control for the instrument. We would have to use the same instrument, under identical conditions of string wear, humidity, etc. One might ask the player afterwards to describe the qualities of the experience of playing with the bows. Consider order effects, a player might "warm up" and like the later bows anyway.
But I think it's possible to do this, and controls are not impossible.
shecky
Master Poster
- Joined
- May 24, 2002
- Messages
- 2,192
My town has a three barrel system. Trash, recyclables, yard waste. Interestingly, in my neighborhood, the trash and yard waste are picked up by the same garbage truck. There's no separation between the two. Recyclables get picked up separately.
I've always had suspicions about the cost effectiveness of recycling. Particularly the way the city does it. Some recyclables do bring in money on return, however, and that's a nice incentive to keep the alleys and streets clean. One guy even cleans up all the scrap steel/iron. You can be sure that a smashed can in the alley will not be there long. Nor will a old washing machine or water heater.
The thing that amazes me is how much refuse my household generates in one week. Separating paper reduces the garbage very signifcantly. And my modest lawn generates almost obscene amounts of waste. Thank goodness for the three bin system, or there wouldn't be enough room at all.
I've always had suspicions about the cost effectiveness of recycling. Particularly the way the city does it. Some recyclables do bring in money on return, however, and that's a nice incentive to keep the alleys and streets clean. One guy even cleans up all the scrap steel/iron. You can be sure that a smashed can in the alley will not be there long. Nor will a old washing machine or water heater.
The thing that amazes me is how much refuse my household generates in one week. Separating paper reduces the garbage very signifcantly. And my modest lawn generates almost obscene amounts of waste. Thank goodness for the three bin system, or there wouldn't be enough room at all.
Rat
Not bored. Never bored.,
I'm amazed by how much waste we get through myself. We currently have a three-bag system (the council are trying various permutations around the borough); we have black bags that are general waste, brown bags for cardboard, and green bags for cans, paper, and plastics. The green bags are sorted by hand. The black bags go straight to landfill. Glass we have to take to the local bottle bank, as has been the case for the last 30 years or so.
Not driving makes the glass thing a bit of a pain. I still do it, and we can take an astounding amount every week. Mostly down to my beer, wine, and spirits consumption. I used to wonder what happened to the green glass. We just don't have a wine industry in this country, and nothing else needs green glass. I later learned that most of it went to make chippings for road surfacing. Well, one fewer gravel pit, I guess. It used to be that we had one hole for brown glass, one for green, and one for clear. I always wondered where to put the odd blue or red bottle, and ended up putting them in the brown. Now we have one hole for all colours (easy now), so I suspect it all goes to road surfacing.
We can easily fill a green bag a week. Often a black bag (but not always). The brown bag gets taken about every two weeks. But I see other households putting 5 or 6 black bags out every week. Even if they don't use the recycling bags (it's not mandatory), that's a lot of waste. Even accounting for kids, I don't know how people get through so much rubbish. I can ony imagine they eat out of packets every night. In fact, that's obviously the answer. Duh.
Cheers
Rat.
Not driving makes the glass thing a bit of a pain. I still do it, and we can take an astounding amount every week. Mostly down to my beer, wine, and spirits consumption. I used to wonder what happened to the green glass. We just don't have a wine industry in this country, and nothing else needs green glass. I later learned that most of it went to make chippings for road surfacing. Well, one fewer gravel pit, I guess. It used to be that we had one hole for brown glass, one for green, and one for clear. I always wondered where to put the odd blue or red bottle, and ended up putting them in the brown. Now we have one hole for all colours (easy now), so I suspect it all goes to road surfacing.
We can easily fill a green bag a week. Often a black bag (but not always). The brown bag gets taken about every two weeks. But I see other households putting 5 or 6 black bags out every week. Even if they don't use the recycling bags (it's not mandatory), that's a lot of waste. Even accounting for kids, I don't know how people get through so much rubbish. I can ony imagine they eat out of packets every night. In fact, that's obviously the answer. Duh.
Cheers
Rat.