Recent developments in UFO 'Abductology'

[Frying Dutchmen]

You could be right - and I would note the same thing about the UFO phenomenon in general - I think (if we ever get around to conducting proper researrch) we will find that there are a number of different causes to all this.

What is proper research then?

How do you research something that has no evidence?

 

[Frying Dutchmen]

I stated in consideration of your quote from (http://www.ufocasebook.com/Pascagoula.html):

” Harder and Hynek interviewed Hickson and Parker together. Harder hypnotized Hickson, but he became so frightened that the session had to be aborted.​

That ”Clearly nothing was gained under hypnosis!”

To be the bigger man you have to admit to your mistakes. He didn't go under hypnosis

He has told his story under hypnosis, told it to Johnny Carson on national TV. Recently, while sipping coffee in his modest home in Gautier, he told the story to a Clarion-Ledger reporter. His account of that night never changes. He has passed numerous lie-detector tests.

Wait what?

"He convinced me to undergo hypnosis," Hickson says. "I wasn't sure about it at first, but I did it several times."

His story was basically the same during each session.

HUH?

"But under deep hypnosis once, I discovered something that still gives me chills," Hickson says. "There were people on that spaceship - living beings in another compartment. They never came in there where we were. And I'm telling you, they looked almost like us.

Oh my

Oh, I am sorry …I had assumed you had read the paragraphs proceeding that quote you cited. For example:

As the two men began to regain their composure, they were uncertain as to what they should do. Reluctant to report their harrowing experience, they felt obligated to tell someone. Despite fearing ridicule, they telephoned Kessler Air Force Base in Biloxi. Kessler referred their problem to their local sheriff's office.

Afraid of what reaction they might get from law enforcement, they opted instead to drive to their local newspaper. Finding the office closed, they decided to take their bizarre story to the sheriff after all.​

The only paper I could get about his abduction was was in August 2001


I'm adorable I read all the links I knew about the hypnosis before my first reply but decided to let you talk yourself into a hole.

Also you use mundane to make out that there are real and fake UFO sightings which is kinda funny now I think about it.

Even if they talked about being abducted with out the 'aid' of hypnosis we would still be in the same spot, because the time that has passed from the event, the lack of evidence, the lack data points(no tape no articles at the time)

The story as interesting as it is but it's still a story.

Also I think we should get back to talking about David Jacobs and Bob Hopkins' research on ET's hybrid program, since this thread is basically about them.

 

[Rramjet]

The Pascagoula, Mississippi - Hickson/Parker Abduction (10 Oct 1973)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/Pascagoula.html)
(http://www.ufologie.net/htm/pascagoula.htm)

I'm adorable I read all the links I knew about the hypnosis before my first reply but decided to let you talk yourself into a hole.

My whole contention was that the story was related to others before any hypnosis was involved - and even after subsequent hypnosis sessions you yourself cited “ His account of that night never changes. He has passed numerous lie-detector tests.”

So what’s your point?

Even if they talked about being abducted with out the 'aid' of hypnosis we would still be in the same spot, because the time that has passed from the event, the lack of evidence, the lack data points(no tape no articles at the time)

So, all I am claiming is that it is a multiple witness abduction account whose basic “facts” (the men’s story) was originally told without the aid of hypnosis. The whole point of me presenting such a case (et al.) was to counter the suggestion that abduction accounts only occur under hypnosis.

The story as interesting as it is but it's still a story.

Yes, an alien abduction account. Now all we have to do is work out a mundane explanation for such accounts.

Also I think we should get back to talking about David Jacobs and Bob Hopkins' research on ET's hybrid program, since this thread is basically about them.

Not actually. The title of the thread is Recent Development’s in UFO ‘Abductology’. This thread is a “recent development”

I also think you misrepresent with your “research on ET's hybrid program” (that is merely your own spin on it) But do feel free… discuss those people’s research and the merits of it if you like (and of course that conversation quickly becomes one about the legitimacy of hypnosis and we will quickly end up right back where we are now…). Perhaps you have a different take on it though?

 

[Frying Dutchmen]

The Pascagoula, Mississippi - Hickson/Parker Abduction (10 Oct 1973)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/Pascagoula.html)
(http://www.ufologie.net/htm/pascagoula.htm)


My whole contention was that the story was related to others before any hypnosis was involved - and even after subsequent hypnosis sessions you yourself cited “ His account of that night never changes. He has passed numerous lie-detector tests.”

So what’s your point?

Well we don't know that to be the truth. We have an website another witness that came out when Hickson was being interviewed on a TV show 28 years later. We also have an unnamed operator of the railroad drawbridge behind the event who was working the period when it happened and he said he didn't see anything but you know that doesn't mean nothing happened.


Basically the same isn't the same as never changes. I have to question why you used never changes instead of what the quote said.

One more thing we both know that Lie-detector tests are faulty so why point at that that it was more evidence the story was true?

So, all I am claiming is that it is a multiple witness abduction account whose basic “facts” (the men’s story) was originally told without the aid of hypnosis. The whole point of me presenting such a case (et al.) was to counter the suggestion that abduction accounts only occur under hypnosis.

Yes but it fell flat when I quoted the time the newspaper article mentioned hypnosis All you have is a webpage saying that they told the Sheriff I believe before hypnosis.

Yes, an alien abduction account. Now all we have to do is work out a mundane explanation for such accounts.

Why we? I'm fine with the null hypothesis at the moment since all we have is a story and an interview. It's up to you not anyone else to research this, since you are promoting that we I guess you mean Scientists should research this.

Not actually. The title of the thread is Recent Development’s in UFO ‘Abductology’. This thread is a “recent development”

Yes but your stories that happened more then 38 years ago so you are hardly pushing the recent development in 'Abductology'

I also think you misrepresent with your “research on ET's hybrid program” (that is merely your own spin on it) But do feel free… discuss those people’s research and the merits of it if you like (and of course that conversation quickly becomes one about the legitimacy of hypnosis and we will quickly end up right back where we are now…). Perhaps you have a different take on it though?

I have no idea who you are talking to or about? I'm not doing research on ET's hybrid program nor think it has any merit.

 

[ufology]

My point is (and has always been) that the alien abduction phenomenon – as a phenomenon - is real. So far no adequate explanation of why people experience alien abduction has been forthcoming. You may decry the use of hypnosis in such cases (and legitimately so) but that does not detract from the fact that the phenomenon is occurring and that we have no adequate explanation for it.

Agreed ... Even though I believe Earth has been visited by alien technology and/or life, the alien abduction scenario is just so bizarre that even I have a hard time with it. I'm not really sure why exactly. I've seen a UFO, so I know they are real. I've interviewed a former RCAF pilot who said he saw a UFO with beings around it that seemed to be taking samples of grain in a field ... and I believed his story. So if the aliens are here taking samples, why would it be so far fetched that they might not just consider us another aspect of the flora and fauna? I haven't heard of any recent accounts. Maybe they've got enough samples.

Some abduction researchers have proposed that the DNA of all these abductees should be examined to see if there are any abnormal similarities that could offer scientific evidence of genetic manipulation. Another researcher claims to have done DNA analysis on "alien hair" But I have no idea what the status of these efforts are.

j.r.

 

[Aepervius]

So far no adequate explanation of why people experience alien abduction has been forthcoming.

There are more than a *few* mundane explanation for abduction story, you jsut refuse the explanation and dismiss it out of hand.

 

[ufology]

There are more than a *few* mundane explanation for abduction story, you jsut refuse the explanation and dismiss it out of hand.

I think what was suggested is that there is no mundane explanation for them all that is reasonable. Certainly we can't take all abductions stories at face value. But it would be equally as irresponsible to dismiss all of them as it would be to dismiss all the explanations.

j.r.

 

[John Albert]

Is it irresponsible and/or unreasonable to disbelieve all mental patients who claim to be Napoleon Bonaparte?

Certainly, they can't all be Napoleon, but at least a few of them might.

 

[ufology]

Is it irresponsible and/or unreasonable to disbelieve all mental patients who claim to be Napoleon Bonaparte?

Certainly, they can't all be Napoleon, but at least a few of them might.

We're not talking about Napoleon Bonaparte so your comment makes no sense. Neither are we talking about people with mental disorders. So again your comment makes no sense. It's just your own bias.

j.r.

 

[John Albert]

I'm talking about people claiming totally unbelievable things. It happens all the time.

There's no good reason not to dismiss all such accounts as human error. We have absolutely no evidence ET exists, and yet hoaxes, lies, hallucinations, dreams, mental illness, etc. are extremely common among humans here on Earth.

 

[Aepervius]

We're not talking about Napoleon Bonaparte so your comment makes no sense. Neither are we talking about people with mental disorders. So again your comment makes no sense. It's just your own bias.

j.r.

Replace Alien abduction by demonic visitation or ghost visitation. Same reasoning : you are making the classic error of dismissing the potential situation in which "of *ALL* being mundane".

Your null should be that all alien abduction are mundane, but are not recognized as such by the people living thru them, and can have a variety of explanation (sleep paralysis, made up memory thru hypnosis, just plain lying, psychosis, hallucination, brain clot, cancer, etc...etc...). It is up to you the CLAIMANT, to demonstrate that the null is invalid and that some of them have *evidence* that this was a real alien visitation.

But that is not what you are doing, you are doing a classic argument by incredulity "so many people can't be wrong !". You can use that for a variety of things. Like "from many people doing autodafé/hanging with witches they can't have been all innocent women, some must have been true witch !". And otehr various argument by incredulity.

That is a downright stupid argumentation and fallacious.

 

[John Albert]

 

[23_Tauri]

We're not talking about Napoleon Bonaparte so your comment makes no sense. Neither are we talking about people with mental disorders. So again your comment makes no sense. It's just your own bias.

j.r.

2.2 billion people believe that the bible is the word of God and that when they pray to their god, their god hears them. They also believe that their god sees everything they do. These people are not mentally ill, but they believe in the paranormal and that invisible beings exist. Although like all analogies this one will never be completely successful either, do you see how one doesn't have to be certified as insane to believe in imaginary beings?

 

[John Albert]

2.2 billion people believe that the bible is the word of God and that when they pray to their god, their god hears them. They also believe that their god sees everything they do. These people are not mentally ill, but they believe in the paranormal and that invisible beings exist. Although like all analogies this one will never be completely successful either, do you see how one doesn't have to be certified as insane to believe in imaginary beings?

Yes, of course I can. The nuttiness of religious fundamentalism notwithstanding.

Even though I was just making a deliberately obtuse analogy for the sake of effect, I don't think it's unreasonable to question the sanity of somebody who came out publicly with such a story.

If anybody I personally knew ever told me an elaborate alien abduction story in all seriousness, I'd have quite a few questions for them out of concern for their psychological well-being. In my opinion, imposing on friends and loved ones to accept such an absurd tale would seem to indicate some underlying mental issue. It might be a cry for help, or perhaps the start of a long descent into schizophrenia. I'd definitely be concerned.

 

[23_Tauri]

Yes, of course I can. The nuttiness of religious fundamentalism notwithstanding.

Even though I was just making a deliberately obtuse analogy for the sake of effect, I don't think it's unreasonable to question the sanity of somebody who came out publicly with such a story.

If anybody I personally knew ever told me an elaborate alien abduction story in all seriousness, I'd have quite a few questions for them out of concern for their psychological well-being. In my opinion, imposing on friends and loved ones to accept such an absurd tale would seem to indicate some underlying mental issue. It might be a cry for help, or perhaps the start of a long descent into schizophrenia. I'd definitely be concerned.

My post was aimed at ufology, John, not at you!

I know you understand. I have been reading your posts on other threads and learning much from your contributions.

ETA: as it is, I agree that a belief that one has been the subject of an alien abduction does suggest some unlying psychological need, whether that be for attention (to make up for loss or rejection in another area of one's life) or some other known, human reaction to trauma. Also, as Aepervius pointed out, belief that the abductor was an extra-terrestrial, rather than witches, fairies, angels, djinn etc. is culturally determined.

 

[ufology]

Replace Alien abduction by demonic visitation or ghost visitation. Same reasoning : you are making the classic error of dismissing the potential situation in which "of *ALL* being mundane".

Your null should be that all alien abduction are mundane, but are not recognized as such by the people living thru them, and can have a variety of explanation (sleep paralysis, made up memory thru hypnosis, just plain lying, psychosis, hallucination, brain clot, cancer, etc...etc...). It is up to you the CLAIMANT, to demonstrate that the null is invalid and that some of them have *evidence* that this was a real alien visitation.

But that is not what you are doing, you are doing a classic argument by incredulity "so many people can't be wrong !". You can use that for a variety of things. Like "from many people doing autodafé/hanging with witches they can't have been all innocent women, some must have been true witch !". And otehr various argument by incredulity.

That is a downright stupid argumentation and fallacious.

Actually replacing one subject with another and thinking it wouldn't make any difference on the outcome would be considered really really really bad logic. For example, here I'll give you a hundred pesos and you give me a hundred bucks ... it's all money ... what's the difference? Your bias is that you presume they're all crazy when they may not be.

Also your reference to a "null" ( I presume "null hypothesis" ) isn't relevant because null hypotheses are used to evaluate the probabilities of outcomes in scientific experiments under controlled conditions. It doesn't apply to non controlled conditions and swapping of the subject.

To use the coin toss analogy, there is a 50% probablity that it will be either heads or tails over a series of consecutive tosses, but only provided we use the same coin in the same conditions. If we swap that coin or do the experiment outside on a windy day, it changes the conditions and spoils the experiment. Alien abductions have no controlled conditions and the subjects are varied. No "null hypothesis" can be applied that can be useful in obtaining meaningful data. It can only be evaluated from a logical approach using critical thinking, and that is where we start to make some progress.


j.r.

 

[23_Tauri]

Actually replacing one subject with another and thinking it wouldn't make any difference on the outcome would be considered really really really bad logic. For example, here I'll give you a hundred pesos and you give me a hundred bucks ... it's all money ... what's the difference? Your bias is that you presume they're all crazy when they may not be.

Well, no, because anthropologists have hypothesised that some 'supernatural' experiences experienced and recorded by different peoples across the global and throughout the ages are in fact the same phenomena, but in different cultural settings. Hence the different explanations as to what is happening to them.

 

[John Albert]

Also your reference to a "null" ( I presume "null hypothesis" ) isn't relevant because null hypotheses are used to evaluate the probabilities of outcomes in scientific experiments under controlled conditions. It doesn't apply to non controlled conditions and swapping of the subject.

This is wrong. Null hypotheses can be used in field observations as well as controlled lab tests. All that is required is a set of falsifiable conditions. The null hypothesis is essentially the control, or what the researcher would expect to see if the result of his study is inconclusive.

For example, I could hypothesize that wider collars will be coming back into fashion this fall. To test my hypothesis, I could formulate a null hypothesis that collars will stay the same width (or continue along whatever trend appears to be happening in fashion at the moment). Another hypothesis might allow for the emergence of a narrow collar trend. When the new fall clothing lines come out into stores, I can take a tape measure around and check the width of collars, thereby testing my hypothesis against the null.

What I described is not a tightly-controlled lab experiment, but a simple set of field observations collected to test a set of hypotheses.

 

[Aepervius]

Actually replacing one subject with another and thinking it wouldn't make any difference on the outcome would be considered really really really bad logic. For example, here I'll give you a hundred pesos and you give me a hundred bucks ... it's all money ... what's the difference? Your bias is that you presume they're all crazy when they may not be.

Firstly we are speaking of social phenomena , so your analogy is so remote thatz it makes no sense.

Secondely the analogy does not work because the argument was not that witch and ET are interchangeable in both story, the argument was that you are assuming that due to the mass of witnessing, SOME witnessing must be true, and you were provided example of why such a reasonning is fallacious , and most certainly downright wrong, with the example of the witch trial : applying the same reasonning would make some witch as truly existing.

Your exchanging pesos for USD is nowhere near that in any way whatsoever.

Also your reference to a "null" ( I presume "null hypothesis" ) isn't relevant because null hypotheses are used to evaluate the probabilities of outcomes in scientific experiments under controlled conditions. It doesn't apply to non controlled conditions and swapping of the subject.

Hu. No. Some null are indeed evaluated in controlled experiment (medicine comes to mind) but the null hypothesis is more or less a default position one's take, and which can be disproven. You can simply have a null with respect of simply gathering data outside in the world or in sociology study.

In our case the default position, the null , is *all* UFO have mundane (even if unknown) terrestrial source. Your constant refusal to accept that show that you have come to accept the ET explanation as a religious one : as an article of faith.

 

[Stray Cat]

Regard the Null hypothesis:
It has been suggested more than a few times in a few different threads recently that the null hypothesis can not be applied to UFOs (special pleading). However, we all use null hypothesis in our everyday lives even if we don't see them as such.
I put the kettle on more than a few times a day and everytime I do, my null hypothesis will be that when I press the switch, the kettle gets hot and boils the water. If I can disprove my null hypothesis, I need to either fix the kettle or buy a new one.