Recent developments in UFO 'Abductology'

Tell me, does this fiction get sexy at any point? I ask because he (I assume it's a he who has done the writing/illustrating) seems to have gone out of his way to make sure that you can't miss the fact that the woman has nipples under her suit.

He leaves out the dirty bits. After the ellipsis, he wakes up on the side of the road. (on edit, sounds like some kind of orgy with amyl nitrate but what do I know)

They didn't answer me. They only looked at me, though not unkindly. One man and the woman came around the table, approaching me. Silently they each took me by an arm and led me toward the table. I didn't know why I should cooperate with them. They wouldn't even tell me anything. But I was in no position to argue, so I went along at first.

They lifted me easily onto the edge of the table. I became wary and started protesting. "Wait a minute. Just tell me what you are going to do!"

I began to resist them, but all three began pushing me gently backward down onto the table. I looked up at the ceiling, covered with panels of softly glowing white light with a faint blue cast.

I saw that the woman suddenly had an object in her hand from out of nowhere — it looked like one of those clear, soft plastic oxygen masks, only there were no tubes connected to it. The only thing attached to it was a small black golfball-sized sphere.

She pressed the mask down over my mouth and nose. I started to reach up to pull it away. Before I could complete the motion, I rapidly became weak. Everything started turning gray. Then there was nothing at all but black oblivion . . .

Here he is depicted heroically battling the aliens. At one point, he "menacingly shrieked" "keep back, damn you" and they do. Cool.
 

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Wasn't Travis Walton the member of that famous family that we never got to see in the TV show? Because everyone's got a family member who's a little bit weird, right?

waltonalien2.jpg
 
Yeah, but the second two paragraphs you quoted are their recollections more than a decade later, after being hypnotised. I'll say the word again - confabulation.
No, it was their “abduction experience” was “recovered” under hypnosis. The actual, UFO sighting and the missing time were conscious memories. The passages I quoted are from their conscious memories. I keep coming back to the same question though – Why do you persist in misrepresenting the truth in this case? Surely you must know that your contentions can easily be refuted by a simple reading and quoting of the case data? So why do you do it?

Especially considering I had already stated:
”As can be noted, Sceptic Tank has outrageously misrepresented the two accounts. That a UFO debunker should so misrepresent such accounts is also no longer surprising to me. Fortunately we have the actual accounts to compare his statements to.”

Surely that should have alerted you to not attempt it again? Yet, above we have an example of you doing it again!

You're right that I missed the original link mentioning the epilepsy - I read it over breakfast before work, so didn't spend too much time on it and missed it. I am, however, not wrong that one of the articles suggests that the doctors told him to go to Fowler, and the other says that the doctors thought the abduction story was silly.
Yes, but your primary contention was that the accounts were contradictory – thus implying we could not take them seriously as evidence. I merely quoted the relevant sections to show they were consistent with each other.

Blimey, I missed half a sentence when quickly reading an article, and I'm therefore anti-human? Seems that you've decided I'm a "them" to your "us", and that you now see me as an enemy of some kind, knowing, as you obviously think you do, everything you need to know about me.
No, your continual misrepresentation of the evidence in the face of fair warning, in my opinion, ” represents an antiscience, antirational, antihuman position”.

I wonder, in light of this, whether it's at all possible to have any kind of productive conversation with you on this subject. I'm doubtful, but I'll see what you've got to say on the matter.
It will not be productive until you can get your facts straight.


There's a difference between "have not provided evidence for yet" and "this is of course merely unfounded speculation". I've seen numerous sources of the information I've provided. I might look for some on the net and post them if I've got time later.
If you have not provided evidence for your assertions then we can legitimately dismiss them as unfounded.

I quoted:
”As strange as this encounter seems, it was not without corroboration. The occupants in the other car would come forward and tell almost an exact story, a story of abduction, mind control, and embarrassing procedures.”
Moving the goalposts. We were talking about her family. I've already said that someone else later coming along and saying "me too" is unimpressive. Twice, in fact.
You mean you are “unimpressed” by independent corroborating evidence? Perhaps you would like “extraordinary evidence”? LOL.

What quote have I made up?
There is no evidence to show that anyone stated “me too”.

Is this how this conversation is going to go? Because if it is, then I'm really not interested. You said you were interested in discussing the evidence. If you're spoiling for a fight, then you'll have to look elsewhere, I'm afraid.
Interested enough to reply though hey..? And a “fight”? Nooo, you can rationally participate in this debate, you can irrationally post nonsense (as seems to be the propensity of many, if not most JREF members), or you can simply not post at all. The choice is yours.

Meaning what? If you've got a point to make, then please make it. My guess is that you're implying that it's impossible for a woman to be pregnant and not know it, and that it's impossible for a woman to miscarry without ever having known she was pregnant. If that is, indeed, what you're implying, then I'm afraid that medical science disagrees with you.
Oh, so you don’t like unfounded assertions..? Strange… I could have sworn… oh well… never mind.

“The doctors there said she must have been pregnant; either that, or she had had some kind of gynaecological operation. In fact, she had had neither in recent times.” (http://www.theozfiles.com/kelly_cahill.html )

So, you originally explained the whole thing by stating she had a miscarriage and didn’t know it while maintaining her menstrual cycle. I suppose while this might be possible, nevertheless the woman involved denies the possibility and it would therefore seem highly unlikely - and thus smacks of “grasping at straws”. Possible? Maybe? Plausible in the face of the woman’s denial? Not really.
 
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No, it was their “abduction experience” was “recovered” under hypnosis.


Everything about the above, including your own scare quotes, screams that this whole story is as crooked as a dog's hind leg and yet you have the audacity to claim that someone else's legitimate objection to it "represents an antiscience, antirational, antihuman position".

Too funny, Rramjet.
 
So, you originally explained the whole thing by stating she had a miscarriage and didn’t know it while maintaining her menstrual cycle. I suppose while this might be possible, nevertheless the woman involved denies the possibility and it would therefore seem highly unlikely - and thus smacks of “grasping at straws”. Possible? Maybe? Plausible in the face of the woman’s denial? Not really.

Apparently you don't know much about women or women's health issues. It's extremely possible for a woman to miscarry without realizing that she's pregnant.

A chemical pregnancy is the clinical term used for a very early miscarriage. In many cases, the positive pregnancy test was achieved before the woman’s period was due but a miscarrige occured before a heartbeat was able to be seen on an ultrasound.

With the ultra sensitive pregnancy tests on the market today, it is easier than ever to get a positive result 3 or 4 days before your period is due. It is wonderful for those who NEED to know, but does have it’s down side. Early testing shows chemical pregnancies which would not have been detected had the woman waited for her period to arrive.

Chemical pregnancies are unfortunately very common. 50 to 60% of first pregnancies end in miscarriage very early in pregnancy. Most occur without the woman even knowing that she was pregnant.

http://www.babyhopes.com/articles/chemical-pregnancy.html

No one really knows how common chemical pregnancies are, but some researchers have theorized that as many as 70% of conceptions end in miscarriage. Women who are not actively trying to conceive and not closely watching their menstrual cycles may have chemical pregnancies and never know it; in other cases, chemical pregnancy could be a reason (but not the only possible reason) why a menstrual period arrives a few days late.

http://miscarriage.about.com/od/onetimemiscarriages/p/chemicalpreg.htm

A chemical pregnancy occurs when a fertilized egg does not implant into the uterine wall. If a pregnancy test is taken just at the right time it will be positive, however, when a repeat test is taken several days later it will be negative. A chemical pregnancy leaves the couple to cope with the difficult news of thinking they were pregnant when in reality they are miscarrying. However, majority of women who have a chemical pregnancy never know they are pregnant before they miscarry and begin what they think is their normal menstrual cycle.

http://www.ourmiscarriage.com/chemical_pregnancy.html

So, yes, it is entirely possible for a woman to miscarry even in the clinical pregnancy stage without ever realizing that they were pregnant, especially if they aren't planning a pregnancy and don't keep accurate track of their menstrual cycle. The fact that Cahill denied it doesn't mean a thing.

The thing that strikes me about the Cahill case is the fact that none of the other witnesses have released statements. Nor do we have a statement from Cahill's husband. Researchers on The Oz Files site claim that they have statements from the people in the other car, but their summaries of the statements are very vague and don't seem to match Cahill's statements. The researchers also claim that the witness accounts are "eerily similar", but without transcripts of the actual witness accounts, we'll never really know, will we? There are all of these so-called "witnesses", but the only one who's really willing to talk about the incident is Cahill herself.

In addition, a lot of the details from Cahill's accounts seem to come from her later "dreamings" rather than from the original incident. The accounts relate anecdotes about car troubles, "electrical disturbances", "psychic events" and a missing ring, but there's no actual evidence provided that these accounts ever happened other than Cahill's word, and the anecdotes are very vague in nature.

The third thing that strikes me is how very little "evidence" of any kind is available for this event. You'd think that more details would have been available since 1993, but the majority of the accounts available on the internet are copy-pasta of the first article you linked from UFO Casebook. Sure, you can buy Cahill's book, but after reading her incoherent statement on The Oz Files I'm not inclined to pay $63.79 usd for a 340-page used paperback about her alien abduction experience. The most expensive used copy of the book sells for a whopping $124.38 usd. These prices are completely out of line for a used paperback; for that type of price I'd expect a leather-bound collector's edition of a good book, not some woman's meanderings about an unlikely event. One would think that if Cahill really wanted people to scrutinize her story, she'd be willing to talk about it for free to more people, produce evidence, etc., but instead, she's produced an overpriced book that most people can't afford.

The final piece of the puzzle is at the very end of the article on The Oz Files:

Update (12/6/02) The Cahill case, PRA & openness:

It should be noted that the above "comment" in the 1994 IUR report was prepared on the assumption that the "PRA comprehensive report on the affair" was about to be released. Despite nearly a decade passing, John Auchettl and PRA have not released their report other than a few fragments of information.

As the researcher responsible for passing Kelly Cahill onto PRA in the first place, principally because I am NSW based and the incident occurred in Victoria, I have to say now that that decision was, in hindsight, a mistake.

My comment in my 1994 IUR report: "John Auchettl and PRA, whose investigative thoroughness is to be commended", was based entirely on conversations with Auchettl and discussions with Kelly Cahill at the time (1993-1994), and in retrospect should have been qualified more accurately. While Auchettl & PRA may well have been thorough in their investigation, in reality there has been no way to absolutely verify this, because of their unwillingness to release their report and data on the case. PRA have offered some seemingly unusual and convoluted explanations for this lack of sharing.

Now, why do you suppose the PRA has been withholding the report since 1994? Could it be that they realized during their investigation that Cahill's story didn't add up? Do you think it's possible that the PRA didn't want to release a report that showed they'd been hoaxed, and wasted valuable time and money investigating a fraud? :confused: We'll never know, because the report is 15 years late and the organization has either disappeared or been abducted by aliens.

Edit: If any of you want to take a whack at the Cahill story, here's the best account that I've found:

http://www.theozfiles.com/kelly_cahill.html
 
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No, it was their “abduction experience” was “recovered” under hypnosis.

Memories alter over time all by themselves. This would explain why the three accounts thus far in this thread all tell a different story.

But that's besides the point. I don't believe for one second that they started the hypnosis session off by saying "right, so you're on the water and have just been hit by the beam of light. Don't tell me anything that happened beforehand, and remember to stop talking the instant that you're back on the shore". I've never seen a session that didn't have the people start at the beginning of the "encounter" and go through to the end.

Yes, but your primary contention was that the accounts were contradictory – thus implying we could not take them seriously as evidence. I merely quoted the relevant sections to show they were consistent with each other.

Well, actually they're not. In the sentence you quoted there I pointed out a contradiction between them (albeit slightly less of a contradiction than I had previously believed), and you started your sentence with the word "yes", which rather strongly implies that you agree with my assessment.

If you have not provided evidence for your assertions then we can legitimately dismiss them as unfounded.

Really? Then we can dismiss the assertions of all the people quoted in the reports you've provided in this thread.

You mean you are “unimpressed” by independent corroborating evidence? Perhaps you would like “extraordinary evidence”? LOL.

Someone sees someone making money from telling a story and says "yes, I was there, too". You think I'm wrong to not take this at face value?

There is no evidence to show that anyone stated “me too”.

I've not claimed that was a quote. I posted it as a summary of the second story, which it is.

Now I'm giving you "fair warning" about deliberately misrepresenting my words.

Interested enough to reply though hey..?

So far. I'm very, very close to not bothering any more, though. Your attitude is very far from what you professed it to be.

So, you originally explained the whole thing by stating she had a miscarriage and didn’t know it while maintaining her menstrual cycle. I suppose while this might be possible[...]

Good. Then we're in agreement that there is a mundane explanation.

[...]nevertheless the woman involved denies the possibility and it would therefore seem highly unlikely[...]

I don't think it's as unlikely as you seem to think it is (try actually doing some reading about the subject) but, even if I did, I would think it more likely than the idea that she was probed by aliens. There is plenty of evidence that women can and do miscarry without ever having known they were pregnant. There is no evidence that aliens have ever visited this planet.

Plausible in the face of the woman’s denial? Not really.

Why would her not knowing she was pregnant make it implausible that she could have been?
 
The possible influences of Cahill's "strong faith in God" and her "deep interest in the great religious works" plus the fact she "had studied them, particularly the Bible, in great detail" in building her experience are never taken in to account by the "investigators".

From Apology's link on Cahill alleged abduction:

Bill Chalker@theozfiles said:
As a scientist I am always aware of the maxim that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
:jaw-dropp

How ironic...
 
And a "maxim" is a very good way to describe it too. I don't think that word has been used in the ECREE thread.
 
Okay, I've had a bit of free time now, and have got some links on confabulation and implanting of false memories during hypnotism. This link is very comprehensive. Well worth reading the whole section on the 5 problems referred to on the first page linked.

This is a summary of the Brandon Report, a report by the Royal College Of Psychiatrists on recovered memories. The memories in question are of childhood sexual abuse, but the findings have general significance outside of the specific remit of the report. I'll quote the relevant bits:

The Brandon report is an authoritative review of the current knowledge of the reliability of recovered memories of child sexual abuse and their source. It confirms that there are no good or safe ways of practising recovered memory therapy since all methods are prone to inducing false memories of abuse. This is the case regardless of the training or status of the welfare professional.

[...]

"Evidence does not support the view that memory enhancement techniques actually enhance memory. There is evidence to support the view that these are powerful and dangerous methods of persuasion.

"...there is sufficient evidence of distortion and/or elaboration of memories to assert that entirely new and false memories can be created, not only experimentally but also in clinical practice.

"The evidence suggests that this is true of:....drug abreaction, hypnosis, age regression, dream interpretation, imagistic work, 'feelings work', art therapy, survivors' groups."

[...]

"Despite widespread clinical support and popular belief that memories can be 'blocked out' by the mind, no empirical evidence exists to support either repression or dissociation.

"There is no evidence to support the wholesale forgetting of repeated experiences of abuse, nor of single episodes of brutality or sadistic assault, apart from the normal experience of infantile amnesia.

"No evidence exists for the repression and recovery of verified, severely traumatic events, and their role in symptom formation has yet to be proved.

"Given the prevalence of childhood sexual abuse, even if only a small proportion are repressed and only some of them are subsequently recovered, there should be a significant number of corroborated cases. In fact there are none."

[...]

"There is no reliable means of distinguishing a true memory from an illusory one other than by external confirmation.

"There is no means of determining the factual truth or falsity of a recovered memory other than through external evidence."

What are the likely preconditions of creating false memory?

"Therapist and/or patient expectations, reinforced by guided reading, particular techniques and survivors' group participation may distort any existing memory or implant a wholly new one."

It's worth noting here that the implanting of a false memory can be entirely accidental and without the knowledge of the hypnotist. It's also worth noting that the suggestions can be entirely subtle. I can't remember on what programme I saw it but a few years ago I saw a programme which had a segment on the implantation of false memories with specific reference to UFO abduction cases. It showed a woman who was interviewed beforehand and stated that she didn't believe in alien visitation to this planet, or that there was anything other than a mundane explanation for UFOs. A hypnotist then put her under and took her through an entirely mundane night time car journey. He didn't appear to ask any leading questions, a typical snippet of conversation being as follows, from after she had said that she'd stopped and got out of her car, having not yet reported anything unusual:

Hypnotist: What can you see now?
Subject: I can see a light.
Hypnotist: Is it above you or below you?
Subject: It's above me.

He didn't put any emphasis on any word or anything like that, but it's clear that his question is what caused her to say that the light was above her. If you didn't know you were watching a demonstration of implanting false memories, though, you could easily believe that the information was coming from her.

They showed the whole session, uncut, and the portion I've listed here was the portion with the most leading questions. Within 2 minutes this woman who had previously professed to not even believing in aliens having visited the Earth had recounted a typical abduction scenario, complete with Greys, metal tables, and probes. She later testified to it being a real memory.

My point here is that even if the whole session seems entirely innocuous, that false memories can still be implanted without the knowledge of either the subject or the hypnotist. The example I gave had the hypnotist deliberately creating the memory, but if you look at the questions, it's easy to see how a hypnotist could create such a memory even without being aware of doing so.

Anyway, I digress in order to expand on a small point from my last link. Back to the linkdump.

This article has quotes from both American and British medical and psychiatric associations on the subject:

American Medical Association (1985): Policy statement on hypnotically enhanced memory. JAMA 253:1918-1923.
Journal of American Medicine (JAMA) Vol. 253 No. 13, April 5, 1985

The Council finds that recollections obtained during hypnosis can involve confabulations and pseudo-memories and not only fail to be more accurate, but actually appear to be less reliable than non-hypnotic recall. The use of hypnosis with witnesses and victims may have serious consequences for the legal process when testimony is based on material that is elicited from a witness who has been hypnotized for the purposes of refreshing recollection.

American Psychiatric Association 1993,
“It is not known how to distinguish, with complete accuracy, memories based on true events from those derived from other sources.”

American Psychological Association 1995,
“At this point it is impossible, without other corroborative evidence, to distinguish a true memory from a false one."

Royal College of Psychiatrists in England published the following statements about hypnosis in their association's journal Psychiatric Bulletin on October 1, 1997,
“There is a good deal of evidence that patients will produce the material the therapist seeks, but it is often a product of fantasy”.

Also from that same report,
“Hypnosis increases the confidence with which the memory is held, while reducing its reliability.”

Professor Elizabeth Loftus of the Psychology Department at the University of Washington stated as her final comments in a paper entitled, “The formation of false memories”:
Nearly two decades of research on memory distortion leaves no doubt that memory can be altered via suggestion. People can be led to remember their past in different ways, and they even can be led to remember entire events that never actually happened to them. When these sorts of distortions occur, people are sometimes confident in their distorted or false memories, and often go on to describe the pseudo memories in substantial detail.

It's also well worth reading the next few paragraphs in which both Betty Hill (she of one of the most famous abduction case of all) and Whitley Streiber (he of another of the most famous abduction cases of all) say that you absolutely should not use hypnosis to try to recover memories because the memories are unreliable. It's also worth noting that the site I'm linking to is a site about abductions made by someone who believes in them.

If all that's not enough, then it's also worth noting that testimony gained under hypnosis is considered inadmissible in many states in the US and, while not actually disallowed in the UK, the Home Office guidelines strongly advise against the use of hypnosis in interrogation because the testimony is almost certainly going to be ruled inadmissible by the judge.

Really, Rramjet, you've been researching UFOs for a long time, I believe. I can't believe you've never looked in to the reliability of hypnosis in the recovery of memories. Even the most basic of research would have shown an overwhelming consensus amongst scientists, medical bodies and the law that memories "recovered" under hypnosis are inherently unreliable and are likely to be false.

So, in short, I return to my original point - testimony gained under hypnosis is entirely worthless.

The possible influences of Cahill's "strong faith in God" and her "deep interest in the great religious works" plus the fact she "had studied them, particularly the Bible, in great detail" in building her experience are never taken in to account by the "investigators".

I've seen some sites which cite it as a reason to believe that she wouldn't be mistaken about something like that. Personally, I wonder whether the fact that she had been an ardent Christian but had recently lost her faith isn't a major factor. It looks to me like she may have simply found something else in which to have faith.
 
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Originally Posted by Pacal
I can not take the Alien Abduction thing seriously at all.
Well this is the problem right here. The phenomenon of “alien abduction” clearly occurs. Many people are severely traumatised by it. We simply must take such a phenomenon seriously if it is harming people. The explanation for that phenomenon is an entirely different matter. Aliens, sleep paralysis, mental disturbance, all explanations that must be explored. However the mere fact that the phenomenon manifests as “alien abduction”, should not mean that we do not take it seriously.

Maybe I wasn't clear what I meant was seriously as events that actually have happened. I also note that the phenomena happens much if not most of the time with the aid of hypnosis and therapists asking leading questions. The Witch hunters were also concerned that the phenomena was real and one of their arguements was precisely that people were harmed and were suffering.

What do you make of the following cases then?

Police Officer Herbert Schirmer Abduction (3 Dec 1967)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case659.htm)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/herbertschirmer.html)

The Pascagoula, Mississippi - Hickson/Parker Abduction (10 Oct 1973)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/Pascagoula.html)
(http://www.ufologie.net/htm/pascagoula.htm)

Regarding the first case Hypnotic regression was used so I would toss that one on the garbage heap. As for the second I have no idea, but I point out that it is similar to the meme of alien abduction that has been going on since the 1950's. I have found that when you research UFO cases they tend to break down and fall apart. I also note that there are lots of people who testify to sacrificing babies to Satan and vast elaborate Satanic ceremonies. Also I should point during the European witchcraze there were lots of sane, normal people who testified to the elaborate ceremonies of the Withes Sabbat.

Originally Posted by Pacal
Reading a couple of Alien Abduction books…
May I ask what they were?

Missing Time by Budd Hopkins, The Threat, by David Jacobs, Communion by Whitley Strieber, Abduction by John Mack and a few others I can't recall the names or authors.

All the books were in my opinion worthless. Jacobs for example with his vast alien conspiracy with hybrids struck me as simply paranoid. Strieber seemed to have a shakey grasp of reality and all of them had a touching faith in the idea of repressed memory and an obvious lack of prudence while using hypnosis.


Originally Posted by Pacal
Two of the basic ideas that form the foundation for this stuff arer the idea of repressed memory.
Originally Posted by Pacal
Hypnosis is not a truth serum.
Originally Posted by Pacal
... the Great Satanic Ritual Abuse conspiracy…
You really should acquaint yourself with the actual phenomenon and the non-fiction research. For example:

(http://www.forteantimes.com/features...revisited.html)
(http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/ejufoas00.html)
(http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Abduction_phenomenon)

The three articles you link to help your case how? Two of them are very clear that they think the phenomena is psychological and doesn't happen for real. The other tells us what we already know abductees are otherwise normal. Just as in the Middle Ages the people who said they attended witches sabbats were normal, just like those who recollect Satanic ritual abuse and testify to its existence are normal. Although these memories can terribly damage their lives.

It is well known that hypnosis is not a truth serum and that it is much easier for people to fantasize and confabulate under hypnosis. Further it is rather clear that these investigators really don't know how to use hypnosis, despite mouthing prudential platitudes, the result is a flood of fantasy. Similar means, regression hypnosis, were used to uncover the great Satanic ritual abuse conspiracy. And look how with hypnosis and bottomless guilibility Jacobs was able to uncover the great alien conspiracy. Very much like the great Satanic Witch conspiracy of the Middle Ages.

The same is true of repressed memory. The idea that things can be filed away in some part of the mins and then teased out is simply bogus. Alien Abduction like the Great Satanic Ritual Abuse stuff views memory as working like that.

I know of sleep paralysis etc., all of which are prosaic explainations for the phenomena. There is no need to think of actual aliens in all this at all.

It is obvious to me that you have not acquainted yourself with the basic facts about hypnosis or of the fact that the evidence for the vast Satanic Ritual Abuse Conspiracy is precisely the same as for Alien Abductions and found by the same methods. I regard these investigators has engaging in a form of abuse of their subjects or more accurately victims.
 
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I stated:
” The phenomenon of “alien abduction” clearly occurs. Many people are severely traumatised by it.”
I also note that the phenomena happens much if not most of the time with the aid of hypnosis and therapists asking leading questions.
First not all abduction cases are recalled only through hypnotherapy. For example:

The Antonio Villas Boas Abduction (5 Oct 1957)
(http://www.interstellar-travel.com/library/humanoids/2-AVB.cfm)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/boastotalabduction.html)

The Pascagoula, Mississippi - Hickson/Parker Abduction (10 Oct 1973)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/Pascagoula.html)
(http://www.ufologie.net/htm/pascagoula.htm)

Second, you a speak as if hypnotherapy were not a legitimate scientific enterprise:

American Society of Clinical Hypnosis
(http://www.asch.net/)
British Society of Clinical Hypnosis
(http://www.bsch.org.uk/)
Australian Society of Clinical Hypnotherapists
(http://www.ozhypnosis.com.au/)

So when you state of the…
Police Officer Herbert Schirmer Abduction (3 Dec 1967)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case659.htm)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/herbertschirmer.html)

Regarding the first case Hypnotic regression was used so I would toss that one on the garbage heap.
…you are in fact dismissing hypnotherapy as a legitimate tool in memory recall. This contention is directly refuted in the literature. For example: (http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf038/sf038p20.htm).

What you are really complaining about is the inept use of hypnotherapy (specifically for example in the use of leading questions) – but then you must show that alien abduction cases recalled under hypnotherapy have been inept in their application. This has not been demonstrated to be the case.

Also I should point during the European witchcraze there were lots of sane, normal people who testified to the elaborate ceremonies of the Withes Sabbat.
I think you will find that your statements in this regard fall under the category of “Urban Myth”. Such testimonies were actually very rare and those that were made can be shown to have some other underlying motivation (such as neighbourly disputes, etc). Examples of the type of testimony actually given in witchcraft cases is exemplified in a famous case here for example (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/salem.htm).


Missing Time by Budd Hopkins, The Threat, by David Jacobs, Communion by Whitley Strieber, Abduction by John Mack and a few others I can't recall the names or authors.

All the books were in my opinion worthless. Jacobs for example with his vast alien conspiracy with hybrids struck me as simply paranoid. Strieber seemed to have a shakey grasp of reality and all of them had a touching faith in the idea of repressed memory and an obvious lack of prudence while using hypnosis.
These are of course your opinions and you do not support them with the evidence or example regarding on what those opinions are specifically based. Anyone can make general and unfounded charges against these authors and their books, but when it comes to specific foundations for those charges, people struggle.

I linked to three articles to show that the alien abduction phenomenon is real (and not – as you termed it – a “Great Satanic Ritual Abuse conspiracy”:
(http://www.forteantimes.com/features/fbi/2929/alien_abductions_revisited.html)
(http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/ejufoas00.html)
(http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Abduction_phenomenon)
The three articles you link to help your case how? Two of them are very clear that they think the phenomena is psychological and doesn't happen for real. The other tells us what we already know abductees are otherwise normal. Just as in the Middle Ages the people who said they attended witches sabbats were normal, just like those who recollect Satanic ritual abuse and testify to its existence are normal. Although these memories can terribly damage their lives.
First, even if they were purely psychological (and many cases such as the ones I have listed above definitely do not lend themselves to that interpretation) then they are still deserving of serious consideration and research.

Second I think I have already demonstrated (above) that there is not a parallel between “witches sabbats” and the alien abduction phenomenon.

It is well known that hypnosis is not a truth serum and that it is much easier for people to fantasize and confabulate under hypnosis. Further it is rather clear that these investigators really don't know how to use hypnosis, despite mouthing prudential platitudes, the result is a flood of fantasy.
These are all again merely a set of generalised unfounded assertion without any evidential support. They are merely an expression of your beliefs - not a debating point presented with supporting evidence.

Similar means, regression hypnosis, were used to uncover the great Satanic ritual abuse conspiracy. And look how with hypnosis and bottomless guilibility Jacobs was able to uncover the great alien conspiracy. Very much like the great Satanic Witch conspiracy of the Middle Ages.
I am actually not sure to what you refer to here. Could it be this case (http://www.rinf.com/news/oct05/susanpolk.html) ? But again you have provided no evidence to support your statements. Perhaps if you actually ceased making up sweeping and unfounded generalisations and concentrated instead on creating substantial debating points supported by the evidence we might be able to progress further?
 
I stated:
” The phenomenon of “alien abduction” clearly occurs. Many people are severely traumatised by it.”

First not all abduction cases are recalled only through hypnotherapy. For example:

The Antonio Villas Boas Abduction (5 Oct 1957)
(http://www.interstellar-travel.com/library/humanoids/2-AVB.cfm)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/boastotalabduction.html)

The Pascagoula, Mississippi - Hickson/Parker Abduction (10 Oct 1973)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/Pascagoula.html)
(http://www.ufologie.net/htm/pascagoula.htm)

Cool story, bro


Second, you a speak as if hypnotherapy were not a legitimate scientific enterprise:

American Society of Clinical Hypnosis
(http://www.asch.net/)
British Society of Clinical Hypnosis
(http://www.bsch.org.uk/)
Australian Society of Clinical Hypnotherapists
(http://www.ozhypnosis.com.au/)

What do they say about using Hypnosis for finding out whether someone is an Alien Abdutee or not? Do they recommend it? Or do is their position negative?
So when you state of the…
Police Officer Herbert Schirmer Abduction (3 Dec 1967)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case659.htm)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/herbertschirmer.html)

When you bring up any story with out the basics it really makes you look foolish.

I linked to three articles to show that the alien abduction phenomenon is real (and not – as you termed it – a “Great Satanic Ritual Abuse conspiracy”:
(http://www.forteantimes.com/features/fbi/2929/alien_abductions_revisited.html)
(http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/ejufoas00.html)
(http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Abduction_phenomenon)

Have you even read Susan Blackmore's article? Also she's an evil Skeptic too

First, even if they were purely psychological (and many cases such as the ones I have listed above definitely do not lend themselves to that interpretation) then they are still deserving of serious consideration and research.

Yes but not in the way you are thinking about.


I am actually not sure to what you refer to here. Could it be this case (http://www.rinf.com/news/oct05/susanpolk.html) ? But again you have provided no evidence to support your statements. Perhaps if you actually ceased making up sweeping and unfounded generalisations and concentrated instead on creating substantial debating points supported by the evidence we might be able to progress further?

Ironic.
 
I stated:
” The phenomenon of “alien abduction” clearly occurs. Many people are severely traumatised by it.”


A phenomenon (from Greek φαινόμενoν), is any observable occurrence.

In popular usage, a phenomenon often refers to an extraordinary event. In scientific usage, a phenomenon is any event that is observable, however commonplace it might be, even if it requires the use of instrumentation to observe, record, or compile data concerning it.

Phenomenalinky


An extraordinary event!!!eleventeen??!!

Ohnoes!!!
 
…you are in fact dismissing hypnotherapy as a legitimate tool in memory recall. This contention is directly refuted in the literature.

Not in genuine scientific literature it's not. See my massive post above which you've thus far totally ignored. Read the actual science.

You are, of course, free to believe whatever you want. But if you want to claim that science agrees with you, then you're going to have to actually post things that science really does agree with. If you're going to keep believing things which are contrary to the facts and ignoring anything that disproves your beliefs, then you can't claim that the science supports you.
 
Not in genuine scientific literature it's not. See my massive post above which you've thus far totally ignored. Read the actual science.

You are, of course, free to believe whatever you want. But if you want to claim that science agrees with you, then you're going to have to actually post things that science really does agree with. If you're going to keep believing things which are contrary to the facts and ignoring anything that disproves your beliefs, then you can't claim that the science supports you.
Of course all that is all mere generalised and unfounded assertion and can therefore be legitimately dismissed as such (as an expression of your mere beliefs and opinion). Perhaps you could try supporting your beliefs with evidence and/or logical argument (as I have done HERE for example)?
 
Of course all that is all mere generalised and unfounded assertion and can therefore be legitimately dismissed as such (as an expression of your mere beliefs and opinion). Perhaps you could try supporting your beliefs with evidence and/or logical argument (as I have done HERE for example)?

What is your problem? He has evidence backing up his argument yet you ignore that and link to your UFO zine tales. Also maybe you can explain why we should accept regression hypnosis when the court system doesn't?
 
Repressed memories? Hypnotherapy? Really? What next, treating people for a case of the vapours?
 
Of course all that is all mere generalised and unfounded assertion and can therefore be legitimately dismissed as such (as an expression of your mere beliefs and opinion). Perhaps you could try supporting your beliefs with evidence and/or logical argument (as I have done HERE for example)?

Wow, now that's a debating tactic I've never seen before - outright pretending that a post doesn't exist, even when specifically directed to it.

But, just to play your silly game, I'll link directly to it again: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6828057&postcount=150

There you go, actual science.
 

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