Reason and Observation

Upchurch said:
I'll repeat it one more time. Under the highest standard for evidence, there can be no determination for the causes of our sensations. Any speculation would be just that.
Then how do you justify the scientific-bias which exists "under the highest standard for evidence" towards an "out there" full of real things, as opposed to the "in here" we experience full of sense-of-things?
Face the music matey. And then I shall face mine.
 
lifegazer said:

Then how do you justify the scientific-bias which exists "under the highest standard for evidence" towards an "out there" full of real things, as opposed to the "in here" we experience full of sense-of-things?
:rolleyes: This is a strawman, lifegazer.

Nowhere in modern science will you find anyone who says anything is absolutely 100% certain. I've never said that materialism is absolutely true, only that it is highly likely to be true and, at least, is very consistant with observation.

Now, listen closely so I don't have to repeat myself anymore than is necessary: Modern Science does not take anything to be absolutely 100% true.

In this particular argument, you are the only one who has made the claim of absolute truth.

Now, just so you won't avoid it because it is on a previous page, I'll post it again:

I'll repeat it one more time. Under the highest standard for evidence, there can be no determination for the causes of our sensations. Any speculation would be just that. You have claimed with 100% certainty that those causes are not external. There is simply no way that you can know this, but because you continue to insist that it is true, I continue to challenge you to provide whatever evidence you have in order to make that determination. That is, evidence that you couldn't possibly have for a determination that you couldn't possibly make.

Ultimately, what I'm getting at is this: You do not have absolute truth (even though you consider it such). What you do have is subjective truth based on, seemingly, absolute faith. We can know this because you make claims of absolute knowledge on issues in which you can have no source of that knowledge. You're very arguement as to why science cannot know the causes of sensation is the same argument as to why no one can know those causes, including yourself.

So, if you want to continue to say that you definitively know that the cause of sensation is internal, I will continue to question you as to the source of that knowledge. That you cannot answer it in a rational way (i.e. "God dunnit"), should be an indicator that you need to re-examine how you came about your ideas.
 
I would just like to add that science makes no assumptions except that we as humans can observe the universe (just like every other living organism), formulate hypotheses concerning what is observed (unlike many other living organisms), and test them for validity+repeatability+predictability (unlike most other living organisms).

The codification of these formulations of observation are unique to humans in that we have language, mathematics, formal systems, and means to convey ideas beyond the current time and space (books, computers, libraries, etc.). The other unique quality is the ability to generalize: to take what appear to be distinct phenomena and find relations that reveal their similarities or common origins.

Science real does not say anything about where these observations reside. It just notes that the hypotheses that we make concerning observations match patterns of similar observations in ways that bely a structured universe which appears to be the same for all of us and exist independently of us - as in there is evidence of a universe existing before (i.e.: without) humans, nay, before our galaxy even existed (unless you advocate last-Thursdayism or Solipsism).

Science can in no way get us much closer to absolute 'reality', but it does gives a good approximation of what's there. And, frankly, there is no possible means to experience raw, unfiltered reality since that would require 'perfect' sensory organs and no brain interference.

There you have it. What you 'see' is what you get. Science studies and measures that which we could best call reality and nothing more. It is not the study of that which is unmeasurable or inable to be experienced. And when it does reach to those levels where direct experience is impossible, it uses indirect means and rigorous inference.

So, by removing the non-existent bias of science, what does your philosophy hope to achieve different than what is being achieved now? As far as science is concerned, they could be studying the framework of the 'matrix' being pumped into our consciousness. Not a difference would it make to science's conclusions about its observations.

Kuroyume
 
Upchurch said:
Nowhere in modern science will you find anyone who says anything is absolutely 100% certain.
Is the concept of 'acausality' - applying to real things "out there" - absolutely certain?!!
Is the notion that the causal-agents for all observed effects shall be found "out there", absolutely certain?!!
Then why the bleedin' 'ell are we teaching our kids these things as ~facts~?!
And why are you hiding behind this curtain of pooh?
I've never said that materialism is absolutely true, only that it is highly likely to be true
Why?
and, at least, is very consistant with observation.
That's a crock. I've already explained that science is the study of the order of sense-of-things "in here". We observe sense-of-things - not real things. Understand?
Science has no dealings with real-things "out there". Your statement is poop.
Now, listen closely so I don't have to repeat myself anymore than is necessary: Modern Science does not take anything to be absolutely 100% true.
That's good. So how long will it take to effect this reform of mine?
In this particular argument, you are the only one who has made the claim of absolute truth.
In this particular argument, I don't even have to discuss my own philosophy. And I'm not going to either.
I'll repeat it one more time. Under the highest standard for evidence, there can be no determination for the causes of our sensations.
Then why allow science to believe that the cause for everything, least of all the senses, should always be found "out there"?

I contend that science should be philosophically liberated. Our scientists shouldn't be automatically hoodwinked into finding causal-agents "out there" for everything within our awareness.
You have claimed with 100% certainty that those causes are not external. There is simply no way that you can know this, but because you continue to insist that it is true, I continue to challenge you to provide whatever evidence you have in order to make that determination.
I've told you - about a dozen times now - that I'm going to do this after I have dealt with the issue of scientific-bias and the need for reform.
You'll just have to be patient. One major issue at a time, please.
 
lifegazer said:

Is the concept of 'acausality' - applying to real things "out there" - absolutely certain?!!
What did I just say? No.
Is the notion that the causal-agents for all observed effects shall be found "out there", absolutely certain?!!
No.
Then why the bleedin' 'ell are we teaching our kids these things as ~facts~?!
Because it is consistant with observation.
Modern Science does not take anything to be absolutely 100% true.
That's good. So how long will it take to effect this reform of mine?
If that is your definition of "your reform", it took place a little under 100 years ago.
In this particular argument, I don't even have to discuss my own philosophy. And I'm not going to either.
You've claimed that certain things were "absolute fact". Same thing.
I've told you - about a dozen times now - that I'm going to do this after I have dealt with the issue of scientific-bias and the need for reform.
You'll just have to be patient. One major issue at a time, please.
Apparently, your reform has been over for almost a century. How much longer must we wait?
 
kuroyume0161 said:
I would just like to add that science makes no assumptions... Science real does not say anything about where these observations reside.
Rubbish. The concept of 'acausality' is evidence that science believes in the reality of "things", since all sense-of-things do have a cause, by default.
Also, the insistence on looking "out there" for causal-agents of perceived-effects is further evidence of a bias towards the "out there".
Also, that all theories should have observational evidence to back them up is further evidence of this bias, since it is obvious that we cannot observe 'God'. Hence, science blatantly rejects the notion of God by insisting on observational proof for all theories.
 
lifegazer said:

Rubbish. The concept of 'acausality' is evidence that science believes in the reality of "things", since all sense-of-things do have a cause, by default.
lifegazer, you believe in acausality. You just name it 'God'. :rolleyes:

And anyway, if acausality is, in fact, observed and it doesn't agree with your philosophy, what is more likely? That the observation is wrong or is your philosophy is wrong? Be honest.
 
lifegazer said:

Rubbish. The concept of 'acausality' is evidence that science believes in the reality of "things", since all sense-of-things do have a cause, by default.
Also, the insistence on looking "out there" for causal-agents of perceived-effects is further evidence of a bias towards the "out there".

No philosophical bias of science CAUSES the results of observation. The reason that Quantum theory exists and is correct is because, when many physicists arrogantly believed that all physical phenomena had been discovered and appropriately modeled at the end of the nineteenth century, they found some anomalies that turned out to be major drawbacks to their models (based on classical theories). One of these was the anomaly of black-body radiation (the emission spectra of heated objects at different temperatures). It just wouldn't fit into any classical mathematical model, or more precisely, 'continuous emission' model. Max Planck, although retrofitting the math into the collected data, found that if one were to assume discontinuity (or discreetly sized emissions), the data could be modeled accurately. Thus was the start of Quantum physics.

By this time in physics history, experimenters were very apt at experimenting, collecting data, and publishing papers for scrutiny, so it was not poor controls or setup or subjective bias. The numbers, constantly and repetitiously, could not be reconciled within the scope of their current models. New models were born that reconciled these. That they incurred acausality was no fault of the observers, only of the observations. Which has much to say about Quantum theory - at those levels, the equipment impose such a large imbalance into the observation, that, de facto, nothing can be done to reconcile, for instance, Heisenberg's uncertainty (e.g.: knowing velocity at the cost of position and vice versa).

Also, that all theories should have observational evidence to back them up is further evidence of this bias, since it is obvious that we cannot observe 'God'. Hence, science blatantly rejects the notion of God by insisting on observational proof for all theories.

Now we get to the heart of your entire enterprise.

So, let's see. You need to remove theories of those nasty, nuisance-ridden supporting observational evidence and experimental repeatability to introduce God into science (or, more accurately, remove science altogether). This has been my suspicion all along (and I've voiced it at least once already).

Science does no such thing. Science has nothing to say about God. Scientists may have things to say, but science is the study of natural phenomena, not supernatural phenomena, and not phenomena that cannot be studied or inferred. As strong as String 'theory' is held by scientists, I have held judgement (still referring to it as 'hypothesis') because there have been no confirmational experiments using it yet.

I'm so sorry that we must impose reality on you by requesting evidence for hypotheses. Let me think..... hmmmm.... before this imposition, there was no science, only speculation, misguided philosophical reasoning, and religion.

So, what would you replace observational evidence with? Your infallible word?

Kuroyume

P.S.: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
 
Upchurch said:
:rolleyes: This is a strawman, lifegazer.

Nowhere in modern science will you find anyone who says anything is absolutely 100% certain. I've never said that materialism is absolutely true, only that it is highly likely to be true and, at least, is very consistant with observation.

Now, listen closely so I don't have to repeat myself anymore than is necessary: Modern Science does not take anything to be absolutely 100% true.
This has been explained to gazer many times.
 
Upchurch said:


Nowhere in modern science will you find anyone who says anything is absolutely 100% certain. I've never said that materialism is absolutely true, only that it is highly likely to be true and, at least, is very consistant with observation.

Now, listen closely so I don't have to repeat myself anymore than is necessary: Modern Science does not take anything to be absolutely 100% true.


Gee, Uppie. Something we agree on. Now, does the part of your worldview not at 100% certainty seem best filled by some form of dualism? If not, what is the remaining choice?
 
If ya'all find those evasions to be intellectually satisfying and your worldview complete, I'm happy for you.

But, why aren't you elsewhere discussing Science? This forum deals with religion & philosophy.
 
hammegk said:
If ya'all find those evasions to be intellectually satisfying and your worldview complete, I'm happy for you.
Satisfying? No. Intellectually honest? Yes.
But, why aren't you elsewhere discussing Science? This forum deals with religion & philosophy.
Despite lifegazer's views to the contrary, there are aspects of philosophy to science. Sort of a "metascience" I suppose.
 
Upchurch said:
lifegazer, you believe in acausality. You just name it 'God'. :rolleyes:
This is true, though it is not a "belief" to attribute
The
primal cause of ALL existence with the label of
acausality. A primal-cause is, by definition, without cause. Moreover, a primal-cause just is. I.e., it exists, always.
And anyway, if acausality is, in fact, observed
For the umpteenth time, all "things" observed via the senses are sense-things (i.e., not real things). Meaning that all things observed via the senses have the same cause as the senses themselves.
To clarify: to attribute the label of acausality to "sense-things" is
a complete nonsense. Since we can only ~observe~ sense-things, we can state with absolute certainty that acausality is not ever in fact observed amongst any sense-thing which we can observe (with the senses).
I.e., acausality cannot be "observed". Fact.
and it doesn't agree with your philosophy, what is more likely?
That the observation is wrong or is your philosophy is wrong? Be honest.
I am being honest. My explanation why sense-things cannot be [observed as] acausal is spot-on.
 
kuroyume0161 said:
No philosophical bias of science CAUSES the results of observation.
Explain to this forum why the conclusion of acausality has been attributed (deduced) to sensed-things. Can you do that?
Can anybody here really do that?
It's impossible (read my previous post to upchurch).
What's happened here is that science cannot observe (nay sense!!) any cause of these sensed-things. Consequently, these sensed-things are deemed to be acausal.
However, ALL SENSED THINGS HAVE A CAUSE (the same cause as the senses themselves) (again, read my previous post to upchurch). Thus, the conclusion is absolute pooh. Incorrect.

The conclusion would only apply if the things we were observing were in fact real. But this conversation has made the distinction between sensed-things & real things. And we observe sensed-things (we sense sensed-things), not real things.
Thus, the conclusion is dependent upon a belief in the fact that these sensed-things are in fact real.
... But sensed-things are not real.
Why is this so difficult for everyone here to understand? I'm completely puzzled by the responses here.
The reason that Quantum theory exists and is correct is because, when many physicists arrogantly believed that all physical phenomena had been discovered and appropriately modeled at the end of the nineteenth century, they found some anomalies that turned out to be major drawbacks to their models (based on classical theories).
My philosophy predicts quantum indeterminism. I once explained why the existence of a primal-cause for ALL perceived existence would necessitate a base indeterminism for the base-energy of perceived order. I'll do it again upon request. So spare me the lectures of distinction between classical and quantum physics.
 
I've made a very important point in my previous two posts. Please ponder it again:-
(1) We can only observe sensed-things.
(2) All senses have a cause.
(3) Therefore, all sensed-things have a cause.
(4) Thus, no human is in a position to attribute the concept of acausality to any "thing" which he can sense,

... A very simple, yet significant, argument.

Consequently, the aforementioned conclusion is dependent upon a belief in the actual reality of "things" existing apart from the sensed-things within our awareness.
Hence, the conclusion is based upon an unfounded belief.

Case closed, unless the judge is bent.
 

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