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Rational Vs. Rationalized Faith

To our Western minds, reared on the Hollywood version of so much =
history, the Crusades mean noble knights rescuing damsels in distress. =
Oy vey -- is that ever a lie.=20

Now, it's true that there were knights, and there were kings, and there =
was a chivalric ideal. And that King Richard the Lionhearted, a Crusade =
leader, (who was incidentally one of the worst kings England ever had) =
was definitely a macho warrior. But that's pretty much where it ends.=20

The Crusades turned into campaigns of slaughter, rape, and pillage, and =
woe to the poor Jews in the way. Indeed, the Crusades mark the first =
large-scale mob violence directed against Jews which is going to become, =
unfortunately, the pattern for the next hundreds of years. The later =
pogroms are just going to be a repeat of this idea.=20

The Jews were not the only -- and in fact, not the primary -- victims of =
the Crusaders. Muslims were. If you're a student of Islamic history, you =
know that a large part of the reason why the Arab world is today the way =
it is has to do with the Crusades. All the brutality directed toward =
them devastated the Arab peoples economically, made the Arab world very =
closed, and contributed to Arab hatred of the West.=20

(Why do Arabs paint the doors of their houses blue to this day? To ward =
off the evil eye. Why blue? One explanation is that it was the color of =
the blue-eyed northern Europeans that came to slay them.)

There were altogether ten Crusades covering a swath of time between the =
11th through the 13th centuries:

a.. The First Crusade, 1095-1099, saw the taking of Jerusalem from the =
Muslims, the slaughter of both the Muslim and Jewish populations of the =
city, and the establishment of the Crusader-run Latin Kingdom of =
Jerusalem (which lasted only until 1187).=20
b.. The Second Crusade, 1147-1149, was organized to help the =
Christians to recover lands which they lost to the Turks, but it ended =
in dismal failure.=20
c.. The Third Crusade 1189-1192 was organized after Saladin, the =
Sultan of Egypt, recaptured Jerusalem. This is the Crusade in which King =
Richard the Lionhearted figured. It was a failure.=20
d.. The Fourth Crusade, 1202-1204, saw the capture of Constantinople, =
which at the time was occupied by Greek-speaking Eastern Orthodox =
Christians, who did not recognize the authority of the Roman Pope.=20
e.. The Children's Crusade, 1212, sent thousands of children for the =
Holy Land, where they were captured by Muslims only to be sold as slaves =
or to die of hunger or disease.=20
f.. The Fifth Crusade, 1217-21, was aimed at Egypt, but failed.=20
g.. Four more Crusades mounted in the 13th century failed to reverse =
the Muslim gains. In 1291 the last Crusader stronghold at Acco fell.
That's the picture in a nutshell. Now we can look in greater detail at =
the aspects of the Crusades which most impacted on the Jews.

(For anyone interested in knowing more about specific Crusades, the =
authoritative source is a book by H.E. Mayer, called The Crusades, =
published Oxford University Press.)=20



http://lists.laplaza.org/pipermail/judahephraim/2003-May/000307.html
 
Add to this something else I've said before: when I live by what I read in Scripture, things work. When I don't, things don't work.
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You assert that living by Christian Scripture is better than living by no Scripture at all. How do you know that following Christian Scripture is better than following Islamic Scripture or Buddist Scripture or Hindu Scripture or Zoroastrian Scripture? Wouldn't a rational approach require at least trying these other beliefs to see if they pass the "Yes-this-works" test?
 
RoadToad,

Add to this something else I've said before: when I live by what I read in Scripture, things work. When I don't, things don't work.
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This exact point comes up often in discussions with 'believers' - StamenFlicker and Christian have also said the same thing to me (in different words) - that they believe "success in live" is directly linked to their "faith". When they move away from the scripture, then they feel that "bad things" start to happen.

Can I just say that I *don't* believe this is a true statement. It's the *exact* same justification given for homeopathy, etc.

1. I'm sick
2. I do 'X'
3. I get better
4. 'X' must have been the cure.

Sorry, but I think your simply 'pattern matching" in the exact same way that believers in other such belief systems do.

I've often wondered whether this is - at least in part - a result of you living within a society that so heavily weights thinks against the "unbeliever". SUrely in Anerica, with it's trong christian emphasis throughout society, it 'adds pressure' to your life to go against the majority opinion, and it "makes it easier" to conform. Of course, it's much more complex that what I've jsut written above, but I do wonder if you'd feel so strongly that "when I live by what I read in Scripture, things work" if you lived in a country that applied less indirect pressure to the topic of religion!

Here in Australia general society doesn't seem to have much of a religious 'bias' at all, and I seem to see 'success' and 'failure' in life pretty much spread across the religious spectrum - I know some pretty damn mixed up atheists, and some very together theists. And the opposites, as well. Really, I struggle to find much correlation one way or the other between "well-socialised/together/happy" and "religious".
 
That's an interesting point both you and Laedewig make, Loki. I suppose the real question is what do you consider success, I guess, in this situation. In my case, I consider success to be better relationships with my wife and sons, and with my friends. Perhaps this is due to, as you say, a certain preexpectation.

On the other hand, I have to wonder about this in light of the failure of my first marriage, (when I wasn't a believer in much of anything). Maybe there's more to be examined.

Don't be feeling sorry for me. I have to ask these questions. I'm not expecting to enjoy this process, nor am I expecting to like the answers. If you have any honesty in your heart, you have to take this road.
 
thaiboxerken said:
If you're a student of Islamic history, you =
know that a large part of the reason why the Arab world is today the way it is has to do with the Crusades.
Click to expand...
The Mongols had at least as much to do with the destruction of Arab society as the Crusades did. Not to excuse Christian terrorism in any way, just pointing out that it took more than a few hundred thousand psychotic Bible-thumpers to break the morale of the Islamic world.
 
Laedewig
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Just when I think I have seen all possible misspellings of my name, along comes another. How foolish I am to think the list is finite.
 
What you are seem to be doing is trying to find rational reasons for doing what you do..that is lead a rational life...if you do that you will find that the Bible and theology are pretty useless..you are always checking what they say against rationality and evidence and fact...if you really are hoping to live a life based on those things as the final PROOF-then all else falls away.

There really is nothing about Christian or Bible based approaches that you are advocating vs The Falwell/Robertson/Koresh, etc type vs Islamic fundamentalist terror vs Jewish reform vs any religion that distinguish them from each other as bases for truth...they are all belief systems grounded on faith that the belief system is correct----when you start to say one is better than another you will find that process is only possible by resorting to reason and logic that is independent of any belief in a Supreme Being or any faith based system whatsoever....faith answers a human need for order where there is none, but it is not based on anything in the Real World.
 
Just an observation, and it probably doesn't have much to do with anything:

I find some of the most useful and interesting posts here are from people who once believed, and now do not. I've gained some pretty strong insights from this.

What I've found interesting, though, is that there are NO Christians besides myself posting here, unless I missed something. Odd.
 
thaiboxerken said:
If you're a student of Islamic history, you know that a large part of the reason why the Arab world is today the way it is has to do with the Crusades. All the brutality directed toward them devastated the Arab peoples economically, made the Arab world very closed, and contributed to Arab hatred of the West.
Click to expand...

A larger part, however, would be from:

a. Stagation of Ottoman leadership during the 18th and 19th Cents.
b. The British and French mapping faiscos after WW I.
 
I find some of the most useful and interesting posts here are from people who once believed, and now do not. I've gained some pretty strong insights from this.
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I don't post here much, but I lurk.

I've gone all the way round. I was raised catholic; though I don't think I ever really believed, so much as I mimicked the people I was around. Around age 10 or so, I simply stopped attending church and what-not. Spent 20 years as an athiest, and then converted to christianity.

...of course, it's only been about 10 months, and I'm once again battling with myself. Not in the same way as before.

My problem is this: if I truly belief, why do I make so many compromises? If I believe, shouldn't I be devoting my life to futhering the cause of christianity? I feel no urge to do so, whatsoever.

For a believer, isn't any compromise really an expression of unbelief?
 
Roadtoad said:
Just an observation, and it probably doesn't have much to do with anything:

I find some of the most useful and interesting posts here are from people who once believed, and now do not. I've gained some pretty strong insights from this.

What I've found interesting, though, is that there are NO Christians besides myself posting here, unless I missed something. Odd.
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How many Christians are as thoughtful and willing as you , Roadtoad, to probe their own beliefs enough to even visit the JREF much less post or read its forums? I don't know the answer but an educated guess would be- not many.
 
I would like to address the whole notion of success coming out of belief...
the first problem is defining success and when the person making the definition is the one whose success is being judged instantly their is inherent bias...

the other problem is methodologic:

Another analogy:

A guy goes to a casino using his "system" which brings him "success"--let us just say we all agree that success is that he is enough ahead that it is worth his time to go to the casino...now if his method is that he uses the color of the dealer's hair to determine at which table to place his bets and the time of day to determine the size of his bets and at the end of the day he is coming out ahead - does this provide any proof that his system is working...that it is the right system. There are all sorts of reasons from science/math/probability to explain why this system is not correct and yet it "works" for this guy. Which proves that judging the success of the system based on limited experience is a flawed way to get at the value of a gambling (or a belief) system... this is called anecdotal evidence and from the analogy given it should be clear why such evidence is not reliable...
 
Roadtoad said:
Just an observation, and it probably doesn't have much to do with anything:

I find some of the most useful and interesting posts here are from people who once believed, and now do not. I've gained some pretty strong insights from this.
Click to expand...
"I've been down that lonely road."
 
bobm,

For a believer, isn't any compromise really an expression of unbelief?
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Interesting concept! Can you give an example of a 'compromise' you've made recently?
 
Loki said:
bobm,


Interesting concept! Can you give an example of a 'compromise' you've made recently?
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Ask any Christian with any integrity, Loki, and you'll find we've all made compromises. That, Amigo, is one of my biggest headaches in this. (Damn, I didn't even get to introduce that part of this!)

It's like this: Paul didn't go around making grand speeches, telling people about the joys of knowing Jesus. Truth to tell, he spent most of his time making tents. (The Book of Acts was really little more than the highlights of the missionary journeys Paul took.) The point was, he chose to LIVE what it was he believed, and that was what made it possible for him to talk to people about Christ. There's ample evidence that he took collections for people who were genuinely suffering, and that he went out of his way to help.

But, if you listen to most pastors today, it's become a headhunting session. Go out, and bring 'em in. (If they stay, maybe they'll tithe, I guess is the mentality.) The problem is, what am I being brought in for? Much of the time, you run into these cliques, (and yes, cliques are nothing more than a form of mental abuse), most of which are gathered around the pastor. You have this wall around the "most important man in the Church." In fact, it's become McChurch. (Come to the sign of the Golden Crosses!)

Problem is, if you read the Bible, the most important person in the Church may not even be in attendance. This is the shutaway, the injured, the sick, the imprisoned, the homeless... Central to the Gospel is the ideal that we are to be tending to the genuine material needs of the community!

As a Christian, I am supposed to be manning the kitchen at the homeless shelter. I am supposed to be volunteering at the local AIDS Foundation. I am supposed to be helping the prisoners learn to read. I am supposed to be doing what we're now paying our local, state, and Federal bureaucrats to do for us. PREACHING THE GOSPEL IS THE ABSOLUTE LAST THING WE'RE CALLED TO DO! You do that only AFTER you have earned the right to be heard.

In church after church, I volunteered to start food closets, I tried to get people to help out with the local social service agencies, I tried to talk people into starting a job bank... I read the Gospel and found something I could do. This was Life and Living: To give of myself, and to make life better for another. I could bring joy to those who had none, food to those who lacked, another chance to those who were seeking one...

This made sense to me. This was something I could do that took me outside of my selfish attitudes, and brought good things to others. Why else do you live, except to make life better for another?

But there was always an excuse why OUR church couldn't do those things. (I've already mentioned this before, I so I won't bore you with this again.) So I moved on, looking for ways to help others. I'm not part of an organized church, anymore, it seems. Who the hell wants a broken down trucker, who wants to help guys sitting in Folsom Prison learn how to read and write? Or help the homeless and hungry find food? (I actually had a minister ask me, "Do you know what kind of people go to food closets?" My answer: "Hungry people." He was not amused.)

That was what I got out of the Bible. Maybe I missed something.
 
I volunteered to start food closets, I tried to get people to help out with the local social service agencies, I tried to talk people into starting a job bank... I read the Gospel and found something I could do. This was Life and Living: To give of myself, and to make life better for another. I could bring joy to those who had none, food to those who lacked, another chance to those who were seeking one...

This made sense to me. This was something I could do that took me outside of my selfish attitudes, and brought good things to others. Why else do you live, except to make life better for another?
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And why does any of this require belief in God or Jesus or any religious doctrine or book???? If you think this is the best way to live presumable that is based on some real world evidence that this leads to real world "positive" outcomes....so again...why do you need a book or a God or a saviour to motivate you to do that which makes "sense" to you?
 
Interesting concept! Can you give an example of a 'compromise' you've made recently?
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Really, anything you do that doesn't 'advance' the faith is a compromise with unbelief.

Posting in this forum. Reading science fiction (Vernor Vinge writes the _best_ aliens.) Playing video games.

As Roadtoad says shouldn't we be out doing the "good work?" Helping people, spreading the word, saving souls, and what-ever.

My church does have a food-bank and is engaged in some volunteer work, but nothing major. For the most part, my fellow church-goers are just like everyone else: looking out for number one.

But if you truly believe, in every way possible, that the (christian) Bible is the Word of God; why would you engage in these passing things? (I'm asking that question of my self.)

My first answer was: I'm selfish.

Then I thought... but how can I remain selfish if I believe all this? The only answer I can see is this: I don't. The selfish part is the doubting part. The part that says: why waste my time? I can't make a difference. What if my belief is a mistake? Why not do the things I enjoy? Why risk wasting my life on this?
 
Roadtoad
(I actually had a minister ask me, "Do you know what kind of people go to food closets?" My answer: "Hungry people." He was not amused.)
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:D :D :D

If it's any consolation, if I believed that Jesus was an actual real person, I would be convinced that this is exactly the answer he would have given to that question.


BobM
Have you ever considered the possiblity that the system is designed to force you to compromise? As Road said, you can't speak until you've earned the right, and the rules are set up so you can't ever actually achieve the right. Thus... you never get to speak, which means you never get to contradict the preacher.

No matter what you do or say, the preacher can always respond: "Have you walked on water yet? No? Then be silent."

Nice set-up, eh?
 
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