Random mutations cannot explain evolution of humans

[zosima]

In another thread I was informed that Adam and Eve were the most perfect specimens of humans, ever, considering where they came from!
I guess that perfection didn't get passed down to their descendants in the 6000 years since.

Really? R u serious? True believer or troll? Either way, you would probably do better to take your comments over to the religion subforum.

 

[CapelDodger]

hmmm...

View attachment 10620

From Here

As Dr Johnson said, remarkable not because it's done well but because it's done at all. The good doctor was referring to a dog walking on its hind legs; I'm referring to the OP .

 

[wogoga]

...

The human genome differs from the chimpanzee genome by only 35 million base pairs, of which about 5 million are thought to be active. Compare that to the total genome of around 3 billion base pairs.​

This means: 5 million base pairs corresponding to 10 million bits or 1.25 megabyte are assumed to explain all the progress from chimp-like apes to humans, including human language and intelligence. See Missing genetic information refutes neo-Darwinism.

So disregarding the inactive mutations, there needs to have been time for about 5*10^6 beneficial point mutations to take place. That's all.​

We agree on the facts, but the question is whether this change of 5 million base pairs (or a similar number) can explain human evolution from chimp-like apes.

The rate of point mutations is roughly 100 per birth. ​

In my argument I assumed "that the number of relevant base pairs (i.e. without junk DNA) is 100'000'000 pairs per chromosome set". Using a point-mutation rate of 10^-6, we get your roughly 100 relevant point-mutations per birth. 100'000'000 * 10^-6 = 100.

Or do you mean roughly three relevant point-mutations in the around 10^8 relevant base pairs and a point-mutation rate of around 3*10^-8?

In any case, if mutations are purely random then the probability of detrimental effects is substantially higher than of useful effects. One cannot deny this fact. So on average, the genetic disposition of the child with these 100 mutations is obviously worse than without these mutations.

After a few hundred generations, any beneficial mutation will spread throughout the genome. ​

I do not deny the fact that such "beneficial" mutations have spread in the human genome. But I'm sure that this spread cannot be explained by random mutation and selection.

So if it has been 5*10^6 years = 2*10^5 generations since humans and chimps diverged, 2*10^5 * 100 * N mutations have occurred, where N is the population size (taken to be constant for simplicity). You took N = 10^9, which is obviously too high - let's take it to be 10^7. Then we have a total of 2*10^14 mutations total in the human genome since the time we diverged from chimps.​

Very interesting calculation: 2*10^14 (relevant) mutations in a genome of 10^8 or 3*10^9 base pairs. This means: many thousand mutations per base pair.

Only in the process of answering your post, I realised that in the same way as post #12, your post could only aim at obfuscation because it has almost nothing to do with my argument.

Cheers, Wolfgang

 

[sol invictus]

We agree on the facts, but the question is whether this change of 5 million base pairs (or a similar number) can explain human evolution from chimp-like apes.

Eh? I think you mean the other way around, unless you're even more of a woo than I thought.

In any case, if mutations are purely random then the probability of detrimental effects is substantially higher than of useful effects.

Yes, that probability is one of the things of the things I estimated in my post. Did yuo understand what I said?

One cannot deny this fact. So on average, the genetic disposition of the child with these 100 mutations is obviously worse than without these mutations.

Obviously. But ALL children have them, so it's not a very interesting thing to say.

I do not deny the fact that such "beneficial" mutations have spread in the human genome. But I'm sure that this spread cannot be explained by random mutation and selection.

You're not sure the spread of beneficial mutations can be explained by mutation?

Very interesting calculation: 2*10^14 (relevant) mutations in a genome of 10^8 or 3*10^9 base pairs. This means: many thousand mutations per base pair.

Across millions of years and the genome of the entire population, yes. There is no contradiction - did you forget what we are estimating here?

 

[Dancing David]

The human genome differs from the chimpanzee genome by only 35 million base pairs, of which about 5 million are thought to be active. Compare that to the total genome of around 3 billion base pairs.​

This means: 5 million base pairs corresponding to 10 million bits or 1.25 megabyte are assumed to explain all the progress

Progress? Progress? What kind of idea is that is biology? It has about a much meaning as dianetics. Do you really understand what you are talking about? The proto chimp/human was most likely as adapted to it's enviroment as we are.

Progress, you mean like having chlorophyll in our skin and being able to make our own food?

from chimp-like apes to humans, including human language and intelligence. See Missing genetic information refutes neo-Darwinism.

So disregarding the inactive mutations, there needs to have been time for about 5*10^6 beneficial point mutations to take place. That's all.​

We agree on the facts, but the question is whether this change of 5 million base pairs (or a similar number) can explain human evolution from chimp-like apes.

Yeah right, what if it just happens to include the right million pairs?

The rate of point mutations is roughly 100 per birth. ​

In my argument I assumed "that the number of relevant base pairs (i.e. without junk DNA) is 100'000'000 pairs per chromosome set". Using a point-mutation rate of 10^-6, we get your roughly 100 relevant point-mutations per birth. 100'000'000 * 10^-6 = 100.

Or do you mean roughly three relevant point-mutations in the around 10^8 relevant base pairs and a point-mutation rate of around 3*10^-8?

In any case, if mutations are purely random then the probability of detrimental effects is substantially higher than of useful effects. One cannot deny this fact. So on average, the genetic disposition of the child with these 100 mutations is obviously worse than without these mutations.

WOW!

That is an unsupported assertion. Can you show why? Really?

Or just assert that it must be true. You do know that the error rate is already high don't you?

Assert away, you sure don't need evidence.

After a few hundred generations, any beneficial mutation will spread throughout the genome. ​

I do not deny the fact that such "beneficial" mutations have spread in the human genome. But I'm sure that this spread cannot be explained by random mutation and selection.

Funny, you just ignored my point which is that variation in expression of traits is enough to do it, you don't need the mutations at all.

Here I will bold it for you:

You don't need mutations, variation in the expression of traits is sufficient!

And what don't you like about selection as a mechanism?

Say that you have a population where each individual has an average number of N ratio of children that live to be reproductive and then you have a reproductive benefit where B is the number of extra children that will survive to reproduce.

So after one generation we have Pop. 1 P(1)[2]=N², pop(1)[3]=N³ so we have general case where in Pop 910 where for a succesive generation S the
Population 1=N^S
But for Pop.2 P(2)[2]=N(N+B) P(2)[3]=N(N²+BN+B) P(2)[4]=N(N³+BN²+BN+B)

Now I did not do the iterative notation correctly but the idea is to see that for each succesive generation in Pop. 2 you will have the extra factor of the B addition but you will also have the exponential growth of the prior B successors, which will lead to an increase of Pop. 2 over Pop.1

 

[zosima]

Are you proposing that evolution is incorrect, Wogoga?
If not evolution, what? If you believe evolution, but think
there is an alternative source of variation, what is that
source?

I'm also curious if anyone reading this agrees with Wogoga
or is this more one man against the universe?

 

[Wowbagger]

Random mutations cannot explain evolution of humans

I agree with that!

Fortunately, The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is NOT a theory that really depends on random mutations. Your sources got the theory wrong!

For one thing, a variety of events could cause changes in the genome, besides mutations. Some of them are: duplications, inversions, transpositions, recombination, etc.

And, even if changes in the genome were all random (which they are not, but assuming they were), it is important to note that the act of selection is NOT random. Selection among the varieties of genes depends on enviornmental conditions, and other factors that are part of the fitness landscape.

If Evolution was a theory that relied on random mutations, you would be right in calling it ridiculous! But, your sources got some fundamental factors about it all wrong. Evolution is better than mere randomness!

 

[zosima]

I agree with that!

Fortunately, The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is NOT a theory that really depends on random mutations. Your sources got the theory wrong!

For one thing, a variety of events could cause changes in the genome, besides mutations. Some of them are: duplications, inversions, transpositions, recombination, etc.

And, even if changes in the genome were all random (which they are not, but assuming they were), it is important to note that the act of selection is NOT random. Selection among the varieties of genes depends on enviornmental conditions, and other factors that are part of the fitness landscape.

If Evolution was a theory that relied on random mutations, you would be right in calling it ridiculous! But, your sources got some fundamental factors about it all wrong. Evolution is better than mere randomness!

But,of course, that implies evolution would still be fundamentally random.




....




j/k



We don't want to do that again do we? Or at least not so soon....

 

[wogoga]

Progress? Progress? What kind of idea is that is biology? ... The proto chimp/human was most likely as adapted to it's enviroment as we are.

It is difficult to discuss with persons who, if necessary, deny the obvious in order to defend their dogmatic beliefs. Do you also deny a progress in telecommunication over the last decades? And if you do not deny such a progress, why should an increase in complexity of human communication skills not qualify for being considered real progress?

I understand your logic: If there is no progress, then no genetic information corresponding to biological innovations must be explained by random errors and subsequent selection and trivial probability arguments showing the impossibility of an information increase by such a mechanism can be dismissed.

Even if we take into account that random mutations include also duplications, inversions, transpositions, recombination, etc., single-step mutations (affecting only two bit = 0.25 byte) are the most frequent form of genetic change. And it at least contradicts common sense to explain the emergence of human language and intelligence primarily by a sequence of such 0.25 byte (!) changes, each of which must imply such a strong increase in fitness that it spreads to the whole population. Not to forget that the majority of such random 0.25 byte changes have negative effects.

You don't need mutations, variation in the expression of traits is sufficient!

I'm actually astonished! So you agree with the title of the thread: If random mutations are not needed in the evolution of humans, then it is obvious that random mutations cannot explain human evolution.

Your claim however entails that all the genetic information concerning humans was already somehow present in the population of our proto-chimp/human ancestors. This does not resolve the problem of the emergence of the information needed for humans, it only shifts the problem further into the past.

Cheers, Wolfgang

 

[Reality Check]

It is difficult to discuss with persons who, if necessary, deny the obvious in order to defend their dogmatic beliefs. Do you also deny a progress in telecommunication over the last decades? And if you do not deny such a progress, why should an increase in complexity of human communication skills not qualify for being considered real progress?

I understand your logic: If there is no progress, then no genetic information corresponding to biological innovations must be explained by random errors and subsequent selection and trivial probability arguments showing the impossibility of an information increase by such a mechanism can be dismissed.

Even if we take into account that random mutations include also duplications, inversions, transpositions, recombination, etc., single-step mutations (affecting only two bit = 0.25 byte) are the most frequent form of genetic change. And it at least contradicts common sense to explain the emergence of human language and intelligence primarily by a sequence of such 0.25 byte (!) changes, each of which must imply such a strong increase in fitness that it spreads to the whole population. Not to forget that the majority of such random 0.25 byte changes have negative effects.





I'm actually astonished! So you agree with the title of the thread: If random mutations are not needed in the evolution of humans, then it is obvious that random mutations cannot explain human evolution.

Your claim however entails that all the genetic information concerning humans was already somehow present in the population of our proto-chimp/human ancestors. This does not resolve the problem of the emergence of the information needed for humans, it only shifts the problem further into the past.

Cheers, Wolfgang

Hi Wolfgang, The original topic uses logic like: "The color blue cannot explain rainbows. Therefore rainbows do not exist." Replace "blue" with "random mutations" and "rainbows" with "evolution of humans".
With that logic the title of the topic is correct and rainbows do not exist.

The inheritance of variation and natural selection explain the evolution of humans. Random mutation has a small role to play in variation.

 

[sol invictus]

I understand your logic: If there is no progress, then no genetic information corresponding to biological innovations must be explained by random errors and subsequent selection and trivial probability arguments showing the impossibility of an information increase by such a mechanism can be dismissed.

No, they can be dismissed because they are wrong.

You know, it's rather easy to check those arguments. For one thing you can write a computer program that simulates evolution and see how fast it goes. Guess what the results are?

 

[Dancing David]

Thanks for the response.

It is difficult to discuss with persons who, if necessary, deny the obvious in order to defend their dogmatic beliefs.

It is even more difficult to debate people who just use words but don't defend the definition that they use and just assert stuff without evidence.

How are you measuring progress, you just leave that out don't you? Progress towards what?

Do you also deny a progress in telecommunication over the last decades? And if you do not deny such a progress, why should an increase in complexity of human communication skills not qualify for being considered real progress?

Um, how do you define the complexity of human communication?

What standard are you using? What can we talk about that has meaning? And human communication skills, regards what, the ability to talk, the ability to play music, the ability to use a cell phone.

Vague assertions are still use vague assertions.

So what area are you talking about.

A lion is very progressed as well, so what standard are you using as a goal of 'progress'?

I understand your logic: If there is no progress, then no genetic information corresponding to biological innovations must be explained by random errors and subsequent selection and trivial probability arguments showing the impossibility of an information increase by such a mechanism can be dismissed.

No, you don't understand my argument at all.

Why not address your false contention that there is only one mechanism by which variation can occur and natural selection can act upon it.

Or do you just attack straw men?

Here I will bold it for you again:

There are multiple ways that there can be variation amongst members of a species, one of which is mutation, but natural selection just needs the variation. The mechanism for variation is not important

Even if we take into account that random mutations include also duplications, inversions, transpositions, recombination, etc., single-step mutations (affecting only two bit = 0.25 byte) are the most frequent form of genetic change. And it at least contradicts common sense

Common sense, like the world is flat, that is a great argument!

to explain the emergence of human language and intelligence primarily by a sequence of such 0.25 byte (!) changes, each of which must imply such a strong increase in fitness that it spreads to the whole population. Not to forget that the majority of such random 0.25 byte changes have negative effects.

You still just like to state things you have already stated and then pat yourself on the back.

You don't need mutation to have variation, any mechanism will do.

Fitness is only fitness to reproduce.

I directly gave you a mathematical model for how natural selection through reproduction works.

You ignored it, hmm, maybe because you can't actual argue except by attacking straw men.

And you still have shown anything to demonstrate why a change (mutation in this case) is detrimental. Not even part of the time. You just assert it.

I'm actually astonished! So you agree with the title of the thread: If random mutations are not needed in the evolution of humans, then it is obvious that random mutations cannot explain human evolution.

that is just bad logic , I don't even need the Boolean to explain that.

The set of variation that leads to natural selection is larger than the set of mutation that leads to natural selection.

So apparently your grasp of logic is equal to your grasp of evolution.

Your claim however entails that all the genetic information concerning humans was already somehow present in the population of our proto-chimp/human ancestors. This does not resolve the problem of the emergence of the information needed for humans, it only shifts the problem further into the past.

More straw. i said that variation in traits is enough to produce something for natural selection through reproductive success to act upon.

You do not need information prepackaged.

Cheers, Wolfgang

So to date you get a 'F' for your essays: address the points and stop attacking you own mistaken ideas.

Here I will recap for you.

1. There are multiple mechanism by which variation between individuals may occur in a population, that is all natural selection needs.

2. I showed you a mathematical demonstration , albeit simplified, where it is shown how natural selection might increase a trait in a population.

3. You have not demonstrated in the least why genetic miscopies would always be detrimental.

4, You show mistaken logic by saying that since there are other mechanisms through which variation can occur, mutations can not lead to variation that natural selecti9on can act upon.

So far you can't pass high school rhetoric, you have an 'F+' because you do at least use proper grammar and spelling.

 

[Dr Adequate]

For one thing, a variety of events could cause changes in the genome, besides mutations. Some of them are: duplications, inversions, transpositions ...

Those are mutations.

 

[Dr Adequate]

This means: 5 million base pairs corresponding to 10 million bits or 1.25 megabyte are assumed to explain all the progress from chimp-like apes to humans, including human language and intelligence. See Missing genetic information refutes neo-Darwinism.

The article seems to rest on asserting as "fact" that "the information of the genetic make-up of a human is a far cry from what is needed in order to transform a fertilized egg only into a human body, let alone into a person with intelligence and consciousness."

But you provide no proof for this, it is mere assertion, and one, I might add, that no geneticist in the world agrees with.

I know, of course, that you are not a geneticist, because of this incredible blunder:

"If it is true that out of these 20,000 genes "we probably make at least 10 times that number of different proteins", then the genetic information per protein reduces to less than 100 bytes."

You may want to look up alternative gene splicing and find out what is actually going on.

Here's an SW article on [swiki]Splicing[/swiki] that you may find useful.

Don't you think it would have been a good idea to learn some basic genetics before you started talking about it?

 

[Wowbagger]

Those are mutations.

They were not single-point mutations.

When Creationists talk about "random mutations", they tend to mean single-point ones. I was giving other examples of genomic variation events beyond what they usually talk about.

 

[Reality Check]

See Missing genetic information refutes neo-Darwinism.

The article has a couple of fatal problems:

1. It starts with an assertion of fact with no evidence or citation to evidence.
   

   It is a fact that the information of the genetic make-up of a human is a far cry from what is needed in order to transform a fertilized egg only into a human body, let alone into a person with intelligence and consciousness.

2. It ignores the fact that a fertilized egg does not transform itself into a human being. There is a womb involved.

 

[wogoga]

This means: 5 million base pairs corresponding to 10 million bits or 1.25 megabyte are assumed to explain all the progress from chimp-like apes to humans, including human language and intelligence. See Missing genetic information refutes neo-Darwinism.

The article seems to rest on asserting as "fact" that "the information of the genetic make-up of a human is a far cry from what is needed in order to transform a fertilized egg only into a human body, let alone into a person with intelligence and consciousness."

But you provide no proof for this, it is mere assertion, and one, I might add, that no geneticist in the world agrees with.

A further example of the missing genetic information (quote from Wikipedia):

"The human brain has a huge number of synapses. Each of the 10^11 (one hundred billion) neurons has on average 7,000 synaptic connections to other neurons. It has been estimated that the brain of a three-year-old child has about 10^15 synapses (1 quadrillion). This number declines with age, stabilizing by adulthood."​

I hope you agree that if the vast majority of this huge number of synaptic connections were built up randomly, a normal human behaviour could not emerge. On the one hand we a relevant genetic information of 10^7 or 10^8 byte for the total ontogenetic development, and on the other hand only in the brain an architecture involving 10^15 synaptic connections. This results in less than 10^-7 or 10^-8 byte genetic information per synapse.

So whereas the genetic information of a human only constitutes a small fraction of the storage capacity of a DVD disc of 4.7 Gigabyte, in order to store all the synaptic connections of a three-year-old child, around a million DVD discs are needed.

I know, of course, that you are not a geneticist, because of this incredible blunder:

If it is true that out of these 20,000 genes "we probably make at least 10 times that number of different proteins", then the genetic information per protein reduces to less than 100 bytes.​

My statement is correct, at least according to my interpretation. If DNA corresponding to 1000 bytes is used to code for 10 proteins, then the (non-redundant) genetic information (coding for independent degrees of freedom) reduces to 100 bytes per protein.

Cheers, Wolfgang

 

[wollery]

A further example of the missing genetic information (quote from Wikipedia):

"The human brain has a huge number of synapses. Each of the 10^11 (one hundred billion) neurons has on average 7,000 synaptic connections to other neurons. It has been estimated that the brain of a three-year-old child has about 10^15 synapses (1 quadrillion). This number declines with age, stabilizing by adulthood."​

I hope you agree that if the vast majority of this huge number of synaptic connections were built up randomly, a normal human behaviour could not emerge. On the one hand we a relevant genetic information of 10^7 or 10^8 byte for the total ontogenetic development, and on the other hand only in the brain an architecture involving 10^15 synaptic connections. This results in less than 10^-7 or 10^-8 byte genetic information per synapse.

So whereas the genetic information of a human only constitutes a small fraction of the storage capacity of a DVD disc of 4.7 Gigabyte, in order to store all the synaptic connections of a three-year-old child, around a million DVD discs are needed.





My statement is correct, at least according to my interpretation. If DNA corresponding to 1000 bytes is used to code for 10 proteins, then the (non-redundant) genetic information (coding for independent degrees of freedom) reduces to 100 bytes per protein.

Cheers, Wolfgang

Study chaos theory, fractal mathematics and data compression.

We covered this in the other thread Wolfgang. If data compression weren't possible then we wouldn't be able to have this conversation, as the internet wouldn't exist.

 

[Complexity]

wogoga - you aren't competent to have an opinion on this subject.

Please refrain from discussing things about which you know nothing.

 

[Zep]

wogoga - you aren't competent to have an opinion on this subject.

Please refrain from discussing things about which you know nothing.

Respectfully I disagree. Let him stand as an example of how "competent" the arguments are so far against evolution trying to use genetics. That is, laughably pompous and weak.