Questions. Simply.

[Horatius]

A while ago I read an interesting article about a phenomena called victory disease. Leaders, and sometimes soldiers become embolden by success and become a little less rational and a little more reckless.

Given Osama's excellent military record against the Soviets, and the amount of country the Taliban conqured on the sweep out of Pakistan. It may just be they honestly thought God was on their side, and they could beat anybody.

I think this is exactly right. He made the same mistake the Japanese made in attacking Pearl Harbour. He thought that the Americans were a bunch of lazy playboys who would rather sit and play Xbox than go to war, and pay the price in blood that that would require. He forgot that while some Americans may be like that, not all are, and the ones who aren't are some serious ass-kickers.

The US is such a diverse country, more diverse than almost any other (except maybe Canada). A lot of people outside the US don't understand that, they think it's all one culture, just like their countries, and they make assumptions based on that. Assumptions that quite often are wrong. This time it cost them.

The other joker in the pack was the outcome. What did Osama actually expect as his best case senario. Maybe one aircraft to be successful. To simply do some damage to the towers, rather than destroy them totally.

For all we know, he may have been as stunned as the rest of us at the results he obtained. Either way I bet there was some frantic phone calls between Osama and the Taliban as everyone saw the full extent of the situation

That's another point as well. Considering how many people on the day were surprised by the total collapse of the towers - There's no way Osama thought that would happen. I figure everyone involved was freaking out when they saw that, but they realized they were commited. No backing out after that.

 

[babazaroni]

The question is the actuel pricing in 2001, but it was high whatever the case.

Why would anyone care about pricing under those circumstances?

Barbara Olson is particularly in for scrutiny due to her conservative commentary and her husband's connection to the government.

 

[CptColumbo]

Look at it this way: firefighters' helmets are heavy and built for strength. 343 firefighters died at the WTC. Very few helmets were found.

GRAVY NOOOOOO!

You know what this will lead to now. NOHELMETS.com

 

[babazaroni]

For all we know, he may have been as stunned as the rest of us at the results he obtained. Either way I bet there was some frantic phone calls between Osama and the Taliban as everyone saw the full extent of the situation

In fact, on one video he said he thought the upper part might collapse, but not the lower.

This is discussed here.


We calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) Due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.[39]

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

My first new thread. Yeah. Last time I was accused of hijacking a thread when asking questions there, so now my own thread for them.
<snip>
Thanks for answers. If already discussed before, my bad.

Questions are not evidence. If you want to mentally masturbate to hypothetical scenarios, choose a topic that doesn't involve the loss of human life.

 

[Larry Lovage]

Dial 0. Talk to operator. No credit card needed.

Forgive me, I have seen this evidence that the call was made collect. However, that does not take away the Truther point that you cannot make a call from an airplane phone without swiping it with a credit card first. I do not know if this is true or false, but I have had experience of many not-quite-public-telephones that required some kind of payment regardless of the kind of call to be made, and it strikes me as quite likely that an airplane phone does not make a provision of freely calling the operator in the conventional way like a bog standard public telephone.

What is perfectly clear is that you cannot simply claim that Barbara Olsen could not have made that phone call because in the phone call she said she didn't have her purse with her. How nonsensical is that? Either you believe in a phone call or not, but not that the evidence for no phone call was what was said in the phone call. If we believe she didn't have her purse with her, she must have made the phone call for us to believe that. If she made the phone call, then the absence of purse must have been irrelevant to the making of the phone call - so she must have had her credit card with her, or borrowed someone else's. Or the simplest explanation (I don't think this conversation was caught on tape, was it?) - that Ted Olsen simply misremembered exactly what was said, and may have conflated the phone call with another conversation.

 

[Horatius]

My first new thread. Yeah. Last time I was accused of hijacking a thread when asking questions there, so now my own thread for them.

1. How many people would you think, it would at least involve if LIHOP was true? What would be the least amount of people needed to create the confusion and allowing everything to take place?

This seesm to be the only original question not answered yet. Unfortunately, we'd need a lot more info about how the various Intelligence organizations are arranged, to really answer it.

If we want to speculate, that's fun, but it isn't really meaningful without any actual knowlege, but what the hell, let's try.

First off, we assume we're trying to minimize the number, so we won't be recruiting every low-ranking analyst or agent, okay? That decreases our numbers significantly, but it opens up the problem of how to keep them in the dark, while still monitoring them closely enough to make sure they don't "spill the beans" by accident. No good having our own guys blow our cover.

So we have a large group of low-level agents looking for info on terrorist plots, who compile the info they get personally, and then forward it up the chain of command, to be combined with the work of other low-level agents. How many levels do we have? Well, in my office, there's at least 6 levels between the grunts and the top guy, so let's use that as a number.

So somewhere between level 1 and level 6, we need to compromise enough people that anyone who gets enough info to see the outlines of the plot, will keep the plot secret. How much info is that? The work of one analyst typically won't be enough under our assumptions, so it's at least a "level 2" amount or more. Let's make it half way, so anyone level 3 or below is a dupe, and anyone level 4 or above is in on it. So, how many people is that?

Lets say that any one level person "manages" 10 people directly below him. So our 1 top level 6 guy has 10 level 5's, who in turn have 100 level 4's. So that's 111 people in this organization, to keep a firm grasp on it's activities. These people must be reliable enough that the conspiracy guys will trust them, but have enough time in the organization that the people below them won't get suspicious when their reports aren't followed up on. Not very likely to find people with both qualifications, but let's just go with it.

111 people, times how many agencies that were looking into such things? CIA, FBI, NSA, who else? DoD? Add in a few foreign goverments as well, like Canada and Britain, so, RCMP, CSIS, CSE, MI5, MI6. that's at least 8. So we have 888.

And that's just the intelligence community. How many congressional or exectutive level elected officials and their staffs would be in on it?

I'm thinking over a thousand people all told. Probably well over a thousand.

And that doesn't allow for the possibility that someone below level 4 might twig to it, and go straight to the media with the smoking gun. Such people would have to be brought into the plot, or eliminated, opening up new requirements, such as wet work teams to keep them in line.

 

[Horatius]

Questions are not evidence. If you want to mentally masturbate to hypothetical scenarios, choose a topic that doesn't involve the loss of human life.

opps!

 

[babazaroni]

I don't know the details of the purse claim, but could it be a possiblity that it could have been in an overhead compartment?

It would still be unavailable to her since she would be fearful or not allowed to get it?

Or, if the passengers were moved to the back of the plane, the purse could have been left under the seat in front of her, or in an overhead forward compartment.

 

[Bell]

Re Madeline Sweeney, what side of the plane was she on? I think that is not known. Did see look down at Manhattan or at the Hudson river and New Jersey (the latter seems more logical, since she describes seeing water)

Re Madeline Sweeney and Barbara Olson... WHAT THE HELL DOES IT MATTER ANYWAYS??

 

[CptColumbo]

Forgive me, I have seen this evidence that the call was made collect. However, that does not take away the Truther point that you cannot make a call from an airplane phone without swiping it with a credit card first. I do not know if this is true or false, but I have had experience of many not-quite-public-telephones that required some kind of payment regardless of the kind of call to be made, and it strikes me as quite likely that an airplane phone does not make a provision of freely calling the operator in the conventional way like a bog standard public telephone.

The last few times I've used a pay phone (in NYC, Cleveland, LA and Minneapolis) I didn't have to drop any money in to make a toll free or operator call. However, I've never used an airphone, before or after 9/11/01.

 

[8den]

I think not many. Less than ten. Some to distract the radar/FAA/NORAD response and some to ignore the warnings at the highest levels.

So you think America's air defense are so effective that they would have intercepted the planes, but didn't because they were distracted by some guys. Distracted how? Juggling? Card tricks?

Secondly, you're saying that the US government had exact intelligence over when they were about to attacked, right down to flight numbers? Where did they get this intelligence? Why hasn't this intelligence source come forward, to deliver this bomb shell. Or that there is an intelligence source that bipasses all and any chain of command and give it to one of these ten.

So you mean none were found, because they could not take the hit and collapse?

I don't think anyone designed a black box to survive being crashed into a 110 story building and then have the bull fall on them.

OK that's possible. Osama was aware of his own plan however. He would bring destruction to the very country that was a safe haven for him. I wonder what was his plan for the events after 9/11 then.

I don't know, not being psyhic, a Pakistani tribesman, or in Al Qaeda. I'll tell you what though, seeing as he's still active five years after the the attack, whatever his plan is, it's bloody good.

Why the collect call then?

Why fixate on that?

 

[Spektator]

I have flown in and out of New York hundreds of times. I can't recall ever seeing a flight attendant looking out of a window at the scenery as we took off or landed.

 

[Garb]

Why the collect call then?

Maybe so the person's card she was using didn't have to get charged?


People can be nice sometimes...

 

[JimBenArm]

2. The four FDR:s from WTC site have not been found. How come there is not a sighting of any of those four after moving all the rubble? Would they be so destructed?

The flight data recorders were built to survive a plane crash. Not a plane crash, 2 hours of fire, building falling on top of them, days of laying in smoldering fires underground, etc. They were not totally indestructable.

 

[Arus808]

purchases, and a back-up I keep with a zero balance just in case.

My wife has at least six...most maxed out...of course. She thinks I know about three of them.

I can fully say that I do not own one single credit card, and haven't found the need to own one.

HOwever, if anyone owns any type of bank account since the 90's ... banks usually force a type of a DEBIT card on you as part of being a customer (then have the audacity to charge you a fee to own it ^_~). I've lived with having a Debit card for the 14 years.

 

[Arus808]

edited

 

[DavidJames]

My first new thread. Yeah. Last time I was accused of hijacking a thread when asking questions there, so now my own thread for them.

1. How many people would you think, it would at least involve if LIHOP was true? What would be the least amount of people needed to create the confusion and allowing everything to take place?

2. The four FDR:s from WTC site have not been found. How come there is not a sighting of any of those four after moving all the rubble? Would they be so destructed?

3. Suppose the FDR's are kept behind closed doors. What, if any, would be the motive for that?

4. It was known that OBL was in Afghanistan and with Taliban. Taliban was already under pressure from the US and others. Do you think they didn't take the counter attack into account, and if did, what was their plan, since Taliban is now out of power and OBL somewhere missing or dead?

5. What is your take on the Barbara Olson phone call from flight 77? There is this claim:

"She was using the phone in the passengers’ seats,” said Mr Olson. Though the American Airlines Boeing 757 is fitted with individual telephones at each seat position, they are not of the variety where you can simply pick up the handset and ask for an operator. On many aircraft you can talk from one seat to another in the aircraft free of charge, but if you wish to access the outside world you must first swipe your credit card through the telephone. By Ted Olson’s own admission, Barbara did not have a credit card with her.

On American Airlines there is a telephone "setup" charge of US$2.50 which can only be paid by credit card, then a US$2.50 (sometimes US$5.00) charge per minute of speech thereafter. The setup charge is the crucial element. Without paying it in advance by swiping your credit card you cannot access the external telephone network."

What is your take on that?

6. Why did Madeline Sweeney, flight attendant for 12 years, not recognize New York City?

"Woodward asks her to look out the window to see where they are. "I see water. I see buildings. We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low. -pause- Oh my God, we are way too low."

Thanks for answers. If already discussed before, my bad.

You see ref, I'm bored with questions like yours. Little kids ask questions. When my kids were little they asked lots of questions. But what's different about CT questions and little kids questions, is little kids learn. Kids grow up and their questions have more depth. The questions become fewer as they learn to answer their own questions.

CTists keep asking the same questions over and over again. CTist never learn. CTists don't try and answer their own questions. CTists are worse then little kids. Their minds don't grow. Unlike little kids, they don't mature.

I feel sorry for CTists since they are stuck in maturing bodies while their brains remain little kids brains. I've been following the 9/11 CTists since early this year and not one of them has come to this forum with answers. Not one of them has come with anything other then questions. (okay, one, Christophera, but his answers are science fiction).

 

[Arus808]

1. How many people would you think, it would at least involve if LIHOP was true? What would be the least amount of people needed to create the confusion and allowing everything to take place?

.....
6. Why did Madeline Sweeney, flight attendant for 12 years, not recognize New York City?

"Woodward asks her to look out the window to see where they are. "I see water. I see buildings. We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low. -pause- Oh my God, we are way too low."

Thanks for answers. If already discussed before, my bad.

Why dont you answer your own questions first before asking us, and we'll tell you why you are wrong.

 

[ref]

Are you talking LIHOP with or without demolition?

That's two FDRs and 2 CVRs. Simple answer: they were destroyed. Impact, fire, collapse, underground fire. Look at it this way: firefighters' helmets are heavy and built for strength. 343 firefighters died at the WTC. Very few helmets were found.

The Taliban did not control Al Qaeda.

Dial 0. Talk to operator. No credit card needed.

LIHOP without demolition.

FDR's and CVR's are built to take plane crashes. They can take more than helmets I suppose. I there evidence of even parts or remains of them been found? Guess not.

Credit card needed to get a tone, I suppose. Has anyone actually seen them used?