Questions. Simply.

[ref]

My first new thread. Yeah. Last time I was accused of hijacking a thread when asking questions there, so now my own thread for them.

1. How many people would you think, it would at least involve if LIHOP was true? What would be the least amount of people needed to create the confusion and allowing everything to take place?

2. The four FDR:s from WTC site have not been found. How come there is not a sighting of any of those four after moving all the rubble? Would they be so destructed?

3. Suppose the FDR's are kept behind closed doors. What, if any, would be the motive for that?

4. It was known that OBL was in Afghanistan and with Taliban. Taliban was already under pressure from the US and others. Do you think they didn't take the counter attack into account, and if did, what was their plan, since Taliban is now out of power and OBL somewhere missing or dead?

5. What is your take on the Barbara Olson phone call from flight 77? There is this claim:

"She was using the phone in the passengers’ seats,” said Mr Olson. Though the American Airlines Boeing 757 is fitted with individual telephones at each seat position, they are not of the variety where you can simply pick up the handset and ask for an operator. On many aircraft you can talk from one seat to another in the aircraft free of charge, but if you wish to access the outside world you must first swipe your credit card through the telephone. By Ted Olson’s own admission, Barbara did not have a credit card with her.

On American Airlines there is a telephone "setup" charge of US$2.50 which can only be paid by credit card, then a US$2.50 (sometimes US$5.00) charge per minute of speech thereafter. The setup charge is the crucial element. Without paying it in advance by swiping your credit card you cannot access the external telephone network."

What is your take on that?

6. Why did Madeline Sweeney, flight attendant for 12 years, not recognize New York City?

"Woodward asks her to look out the window to see where they are. "I see water. I see buildings. We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low. -pause- Oh my God, we are way too low."

Thanks for answers. If already discussed before, my bad.

 

[Bell]

5. What is your take on the Barbara Olson phone call from flight 77? There is this claim:

"She was using the phone in the passengers’ seats,” said Mr Olson. Though the American Airlines Boeing 757 is fitted with individual telephones at each seat position, they are not of the variety where you can simply pick up the handset and ask for an operator. On many aircraft you can talk from one seat to another in the aircraft free of charge, but if you wish to access the outside world you must first swipe your credit card through the telephone. By Ted Olson’s own admission, Barbara did not have a credit card with her.

On American Airlines there is a telephone "setup" charge of US$2.50 which can only be paid by credit card, then a US$2.50 (sometimes US$5.00) charge per minute of speech thereafter. The setup charge is the crucial element. Without paying it in advance by swiping your credit card you cannot access the external telephone network."

What is your take on that?

She could have used someone else creditcard.

6. Why did Madeline Sweeney, flight attendant for 12 years, not recognize New York City?

"Woodward asks her to look out the window to see where they are. "I see water. I see buildings. We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low. -pause- Oh my God, we are way too low."

Thanks for answers. If already discussed before, my bad.

There is no evidence she did NOT recognize New York.

How long did it take for AA11 to fly over Manhattan? Does someone know?

 

[8den]

My first new thread. Yeah. Last time I was accused of hijacking a thread when asking questions there, so now my own thread for them.

1. How many people would you think, it would at least involve if LIHOP was true? What would be the least amount of people needed to create the confusion and allowing everything to take place?

You're the one making the assertion. You tell us what you think the minimum amount would be.

2. The four FDR:s from WTC site have not been found. How come there is not a sighting of any of those four after moving all the rubble? Would they be so destructed?

Destructed? I imagine getting flown into the side of a 110 story building, which then fell on them would have something to do with it.

3. Suppose the FDR's are kept behind closed doors. What, if any, would be the motive for that?

Pure speculation.

4. It was known that OBL was in Afghanistan and with Taliban. Taliban was already under pressure from the US and others. Do you think they didn't take the counter attack into account, and if did, what was their plan, since Taliban is now out of power and OBL somewhere missing or dead?

He's missing now? No you cannot find him, doesn't mean he's not active.
The Taliban may not, and probably weren't aware of Osama Bin Laden's plan.

5. What is your take on the Barbara Olson phone call from flight 77? There is this claim:

"She was using the phone in the passengers’ seats,” said Mr Olson. Though the American Airlines Boeing 757 is fitted with individual telephones at each seat position, they are not of the variety where you can simply pick up the handset and ask for an operator. On many aircraft you can talk from one seat to another in the aircraft free of charge, but if you wish to access the outside world you must first swipe your credit card through the telephone. By Ted Olson’s own admission, Barbara did not have a credit card with her.

On American Airlines there is a telephone "setup" charge of US$2.50 which can only be paid by credit card, then a US$2.50 (sometimes US$5.00) charge per minute of speech thereafter. The setup charge is the crucial element. Without paying it in advance by swiping your credit card you cannot access the external telephone network."

What is your take on that?

So whats so incredibly implausible about her borrowing another passengers credit card, and taking the second to running it through the card reader.

6. Why did Madeline Sweeney, flight attendant for 12 years, not recognize New York City?

"

Woodward asks her to look out the window to see where they are. "I see water. I see buildings. We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low. -pause- Oh my God, we are way too low."

The answer is in the quote. She was seeing the city from an unfamiliar angle, while in a panic.

 

[ref]

She could have used someone else creditcard.

Then why make a collect call?

 

[Rob Lister]

I generally stay out of the 9-11 CT threads but the assertion that Barbara Oslo had neither a credit card or a debit card (which work as credit cards) is beyond belief. While it is true that some people don't like to use their debit/credit cards, that she would not have one, while traveling, is incomprehensible to me.

Heck, I have a debit card (which can be used as a credit card so long as I have money in checking), two types of credit cards I use for secured purchases, and a back-up I keep with a zero balance just in case.

My wife has at least six...most maxed out...of course. She thinks I know about three of them.

 

[Bell]

He's missing now? No you cannot find him, doesn't mean he's not active.
The Taliban may not, and probably weren't aware of Osama Bin Laden's plan.

Ahmed Shah Massoud, the leader of the Northern Alliance, was killed 2 days before the 9/11 attacks, presumably by Al Qaida, to win favors with the Taliban.

Massoud was the victim of a suicide attack which occurred at Khvajeh Ba Odin on September 9, 2001, two days before the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack in the United States, a timing considered significant by some commentators who believe Osama bin Laden ordered the assassination to ensure he would have the Taliban's protection and cooperation in Afghanistan. The attackers were two Arabs who claimed to be Belgians originally from Morocco. However their passports turned out to be stolen. According to some accounts they were posing as journalists, perhaps intending to attack several Northern Alliance council members simultaneously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Shah_Massoud

 

[Bell]

Then why make a collect call?

I think I allready gave the asnwer to that:

She could have used someone else creditcard.

 

[ref]

You're the one making the assertion. You tell us what you think the minimum amount would be.

I think not many. Less than ten. Some to distract the radar/FAA/NORAD response and some to ignore the warnings at the highest levels.

Destructed? I imagine getting flown into the side of a 110 story building, which then fell on them would have something to do with it.

So you mean none were found, because they could not take the hit and collapse?

He's missing now? No you cannot find him, doesn't mean he's not active.
The Taliban may not, and probably weren't aware of Osama Bin Laden's plan.

OK that's possible. Osama was aware of his own plan however. He would bring destruction to the very country that was a safe haven for him. I wonder what was his plan for the events after 9/11 then.

So whats so incredibly implausible about her borrowing another passengers credit card, and taking the second to running it through the card reader.

Why the collect call then?

The answer is in the quote. She was seeing the city from an unfamiliar angle, while in a panic.

Panic is a factor. However she flew over the entire manhattan with it's landmarks and was a seasoned air hostess. Maybe panic is enough to wipe all other out.

 

[Architect]

Panic is a factor. However she flew over the entire manhattan with it's landmarks and was a seasoned air hostess. Maybe panic is enough to wipe all other out.

Yea, because these wee aeroplane windows really give people a panoramic view, eh?

 

[MG1962]

Ahmed Shah Massoud, the leader of the Northern Alliance, was killed 2 days before the 9/11 attacks, presumably by Al Qaida, to win favors with the Taliban.

I recall seeing the press conferences the Taliban ran in the days after 911. I can only describe them as a little paniced and rushed. I suspect (As much as I despise them) That they were between a rock and a hard place. They knew the US would come, but they fear Osmar more at the time.

Perhaps their choice was made in the hindsight of the Soviet invasion. We beat them, we will beat the US as well. Fortunately the US learned from the lessons on offer from the Soviet venture, and pushed the Taliban to the point of extinction pretty fast

 

[ref]

Yea, because these wee aeroplane windows really give people a panoramic view, eh?

Ok let's assume she did not recognize Manhattan in panic and through small windows. What's your take on the other points?

 

[Firestone]

On American Airlines there is a telephone "setup" charge of US$2.50 which can only be paid by credit card, then a US$2.50 (sometimes US$5.00) charge per minute of speech thereafter. The setup charge is the crucial element. Without paying it in advance by swiping your credit card you cannot access the external telephone network."

Do you have a source for this claim?

Like you, I'm just asking ...

 

[ref]

I recall seeing the press conferences the Taliban ran in the days after 911. I can only describe them as a little paniced and rushed. I suspect (As much as I despise them) That they were between a rock and a hard place. They knew the US would come, but they fear Osmar more at the time.

Perhaps their choice was made in the hindsight of the Soviet invasion. We beat them, we will beat the US as well. Fortunately the US learned from the lessons on offer from the Soviet venture, and pushed the Taliban to the point of extinction pretty fast

You think Osama had the sama mindstate too, that they could take USA like they did Russia? Because all the parties must have foreseen the evident military retaliation. In Osama's case however, he was bringing war to the very place defending him.

 

[Bell]

How long did it take for AA11 to fly over Manhattan? Does someone know?

I'll try answering myself
(figures taken from Wikipedia)

AA11 flew approximatley 470 miles per hour when it impacted.
That's 7.83 miles per minute.

Manhattan is 13 miles long.
13 / 7.83 = 1.66 minutes or about 1 minute 40 seconds.

I think I calculated that right?

 

[ref]

Do you have a source for this claim?

Like you, I'm just asking ...

"Sliding my credit card through a slot on the seat-back airplane telephone, a gizmo approaching the size of the walkie-talkies they hauled onto Omaha Beach in 1944."

"By now, even though I had been speaking in a low voice and keeping my head down like a cringing cur, it was clear that I had been branded by fellow passengers as a public nuisance. Grand total in credit card charges to achieve all of this: $45. No wonder you never see anyone using those in-seat phones on airplanes. Still, for those who need to make telephone calls in flight and don't want to sell the second car to finance them, help is on the way."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/10/travel/trshark.php

"AirFone commenced its service in the early 1980s starting with first-class under experimental licenses; the FCC's formal allocation was in 1990. AirFone handsets were gradually extended to include one unit in each row of seats in economy. The service was always priced extremely high--$3.99 per call and $4.99 per minute in 2006--and has seen less and less use as the ready availability of cellular telephones has increased."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airphone

The question is the actuel pricing in 2001, but it was high whatever the case.

 

[MG1962]

You think Osama had the sama mindstate too, that they could take USA like they did Russia? Because all the parties must have foreseen the evident military retaliation. In Osama's case however, he was bringing war to the very place defending him.

A while ago I read an interesting article about a phenomena called victory disease. Leaders, and sometimes soldiers become embolden by success and become a little less rational and a little more reckless.

Given Osama's excellent military record against the Soviets, and the amount of country the Taliban conqured on the sweep out of Pakistan. It may just be they honestly thought God was on their side, and they could beat anybody.

The other joker in the pack was the outcome. What did Osama actually expect as his best case senario. Maybe one aircraft to be successful. To simply do some damage to the towers, rather than destroy them totally.

For all we know, he may have been as stunned as the rest of us at the results he obtained. Either way I bet there was some frantic phone calls between Osama and the Taliban as everyone saw the full extent of the situation

 

[Firestone]

"Sliding my credit card through a slot on the seat-back airplane telephone, a gizmo approaching the size of the walkie-talkies they hauled onto Omaha Beach in 1944."

"By now, even though I had been speaking in a low voice and keeping my head down like a cringing cur, it was clear that I had been branded by fellow passengers as a public nuisance. Grand total in credit card charges to achieve all of this: $45. No wonder you never see anyone using those in-seat phones on airplanes. Still, for those who need to make telephone calls in flight and don't want to sell the second car to finance them, help is on the way."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/10/travel/trshark.php

"AirFone commenced its service in the early 1980s starting with first-class under experimental licenses; the FCC's formal allocation was in 1990. AirFone handsets were gradually extended to include one unit in each row of seats in economy. The service was always priced extremely high--$3.99 per call and $4.99 per minute in 2006--and has seen less and less use as the ready availability of cellular telephones has increased."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airphone

The question is the actuel pricing in 2001, but it was high whatever the case.

Oh, I was not referring to the pricing, but to the following: "Without paying it in advance by swiping your credit card you cannot access the external telephone network."

It may have been possible to reach an operator without credit-card. For instance, Todd Beamer from flight 93 called an airphone operator by dialing 0 on his airphone. (Source)
So maybe Barbara Olson also called an operator, and from there got to call her husband collect?

I'm just speculating, I've never used an airphone.

 

[CptColumbo]

[Pure speculation mode]Some people don't like to carry credit cards, and use traveler's checks when traveling. Also, if you take the husbands statement verbatim, she may have a debit card. If she used someone else's card (if she needed a card to call collect), it's not a monumental leap to assume she would then call collect to save that person the extra charges, and would give them the set-up fee (in cash) at the next possible moment (they still didn't know they were going to die yet).[/pure speculation mode]

The fact that a flight attendant didn't know the address of the building or city she was passing over, at a low altitude and a high rate of speed in a very frightening situation, is not surprising. However, she didn't say she didn't know where she was. You can speculate all you want on how a person would/should act in those situations, but until you experience it yourself it's only speculation on your part. Further, every person is different and may see a situation differently than you, especially when your looking at it in hindsight.

 

[Larry Lovage]

OK that's possible. Osama was aware of his own plan however. He would bring destruction to the very country that was a safe haven for him. I wonder what was his plan for the events after 9/11 then.

Actual governments have committed actions which brought "destruction" on them, to the level of airstrikes - Iraq, Iran and Syria are three that I can think of to begin with.

As to Osama Bin Laden's post-9/11 plan, it certainly seems to have worked quite well so far. At any rate, he went to war against the United States with the assumption that he would win it, as anybody does who goes to war against another nation. Admiral Yamamoto recognised the possibility that Pearl Harbor was a Pyhrric victory, that "we have merely awaken the giant from its slumber", but he had only done it under orders from the imperialistic Japanese leadership.

 

[Gravy]

1. How many people would you think, it would at least involve if LIHOP was true? What would be the least amount of people needed to create the confusion and allowing everything to take place?

Are you talking LIHOP with or without demolition?

The four FDR:s from WTC site have not been found. How come there is not a sighting of any of those four after moving all the rubble? Would they be so destructed?

That's two FDRs and 2 CVRs. Simple answer: they were destroyed. Impact, fire, collapse, underground fire. Look at it this way: firefighters' helmets are heavy and built for strength. 343 firefighters died at the WTC. Very few helmets were found.

3. Suppose the FDR's are kept behind closed doors. What, if any, would be the motive for that?

Suppose monkeys flew out of my butt? What was their motive for being in there?

4. It was known that OBL was in Afghanistan and with Taliban. Taliban was already under pressure from the US and others. Do you think they didn't take the counter attack into account, and if did, what was their plan, since Taliban is now out of power and OBL somewhere missing or dead?

The Taliban did not control Al Qaeda.

On American Airlines there is a telephone "setup" charge of US$2.50 which can only be paid by credit card, then a US$2.50 (sometimes US$5.00) charge per minute of speech thereafter. The setup charge is the crucial element. Without paying it in advance by swiping your credit card you cannot access the external telephone network."

What is your take on that?

Dial 0. Talk to operator. No credit card needed.

Why did Madeline Sweeney, flight attendant for 12 years, not recognize New York City?

Why in the world do you say that?