Questions for Truthers

[johnny karate]

But to answer your last question, we would get into a discussion about whether the NIST report is conclusive, why the evidence was spoliated? Is it an excuse that the column and other material would have been difficult to recover, etc etc. It would become a discussion of whether or not that particular explanation is conclusive. If we finish by disagreeing, it's a matter of perspective or opinion.

Note: I'm quoting this portion and addressing it not to derail the thread, but to point out examples of his disingenuous tactics for which RedIbis himself asked.

1) No one ever claimed the NIST report itself to be conclusive. It is part of an overwhelming body of evidence. It is the body of evidence which is conclusive. This has been pointed out to you many, many times. Ignoring this is a disingenuous tactic in which you frame the discussion in a very specific way to give the appearance your side of the debate has more credence than it does.

2) The evidence was spoliated by the nature of the building's collapse. You're phrasing of the question suggests it was spoliated with intent by persons with nefarious motives. This is a disingenuous tactic, and equivalent to asking "Have you stopped beating your wife?".

3) The difficulty in recovering Column 79 was not merely an "excuse", but a hard fact. The reasons for this have been explained to you many, many times in the numerous threads on this topic. You've ignored them all. Again, you employ the disingenuous tactics of ignoring explanations you don't like and asking loaded questions.

The NIST WTC7 Report and Column 79 have been discussed in great detail in several threads. You've received many thoughtful responses to your queries on this issue. You've ignored them all. You bringing it up again here, as if it's somehow still an open question, is proof of that.

You pulled the same stunt with your question about the Shanksville soil tests. Again, you received many thoughtful answers. And again, you ignored them. You carry on as if no one has addressed your questions and then, rather ironically, come to this thread to complain about the level of discourse.

If you really want honest and open discussion, then return to the many threads you've abandoned and take part. Answers questions put to you in the manner in which you wish to have your questions answered, and I guarantee you will see a change in how others here treat you.

 

[Hokulele]

Now, in my mind, my original question is important and relevant. Many don't agree, but in a skeptics forum based on critical thinking, I would think that physical evidence to back up an unprecedented hypothesis would be requisite, but it's not. It's not required because there is the presumption that whatever analysis an official provides that supports the official story is correct.

OK, I am going to tiptoe up to the line of what may or may not be acceptable on JREF.

RedIbis, this is a perfect example of why many people here consider you to be a dishonest participant in this area of the forum. The dishonesty isn't in the fact of the questions you ask, but in how you appear to choose which questions you ask.

Almost every issue I have seen you raise has been one where you seem to be deliberately angling for the "right" answer. It makes it look as though you couldn't care less about the truth of what happened on and around September 11, but only in finding confirmation of your own conclusions ("See, they can't answer that one, or the only answer is the one I want!"). I see this all the freakin' time with the CTists who bring up the stupid No Airplane Parts with Serial Numbers topic.

The few times where you have bought up other points and have watched them be systematically demolished (such as Jones' red chips paper being dismantled by Sunstealer and ElMondoHummus), you have never acknowledged the counter-argument, just abandonded the thread without even a "Huh, I never knew that."

It is intellectually dishonest to cling to one minor point while dismissing the larger context. It is disheartening to feel as if one's rational examination of a topic is largely ignored. And that is why people like BenBurch, who have honestly tried to point you to the next logical step in finding out about the larger context, are so frustrated with your role in the discussion. Quite frankly, it is one of the major reasons I rarely join the threads in which you are participating.

*Peers over the edge and decides to stop here.*

 

[BenBurch]

It's all due to their political beliefs. Everyone accepts that a politican will lie. Any means to an end, etc. The lies that the few smart troofers out there repeat are just a means to an end.

That end is pretty clear when they post HERE. Nobody in this forum is mis-informed. If they truly wanted to inform "the sheeple", they'd go elsewhere. So, they're only here to troll.

Dudes like Red know they're trolling. They don't care that they ask irrelevant questions like where is col 79? What physical evidence was used, blah blah blah.....

Like all trolls, this is how they get their rocks off.

If anything I loathed the previous batch of politicians more than they do. I just don't think descending to their level is how to defeat them.

 

[FineWine]

What specifically do you see as my disingenuous tactics?

I presented a case and cited specific examples in post #35. Predictably, you ignored it.

 

[Quad4_72]

Of course, JREF members are taking Redibis's bait hook, line and sinker.

 

[BenBurch]

Of course, JREF members are taking Redibis's bait hook, line and sinker.

Alternative to attempting to get him to answer truthfully is the ignore button. If we ALL ignore him, it will appear to the casual visitor - and remember that Google ranks this site high in the list on almost any issue attached to twooferdom - it will appear that we do not have any answer to his dishonest spew.

 

[Quad4_72]

Alternative to attempting to get him to answer truthfully is the ignore button. If we ALL ignore him, it will appear to the casual visitor - and remember that Google ranks this site high in the list on almost any issue attached to twooferdom - it will appear that we do not have any answer to his dishonest spew.

Actually, he would disappear from the forums and no longer be a problem, seeing as how no one would be responding to him anymore. Remember, they are not here for truth, they are here for attention.

 

[FineWine]

Of course, JREF members are taking Redibis's bait hook, line and sinker.

I posted a lengthy response to RedIbis in post #35. Far from considering the effort a waste of time, I think it served a purpose to send him packing. There was no chance he would respond to my specific criticisms, and his evasiveness should be highlighted at every opportunity.

 

[Quad4_72]

I posted a lengthy response to RedIbis in post #35. Far from considering the effort a waste of time, I think it served a purpose to send him packing. There was no chance he would respond to my specific criticisms, and his evasiveness should be highlighted at every opportunity.

To send him packing? Where exactly will he be packing to? He is either going to post more nonsense in this thread, or just move on to another, continuing the cycle. Every time you highlight his evasiveness, it just adds fuel to the fire. The twoofer will continue to spew lunacy until he is ignored.

 

[BenBurch]

Actually, he would disappear from the forums and no longer be a problem, seeing as how no one would be responding to him anymore. Remember, they are not here for truth, they are here for attention.

Good point.

He's on ignore now.

 

[FineWine]

To send him packing? Where exactly will he be packing to? He is either going to post more nonsense in this thread, or just move on to another, continuing the cycle. Every time you highlight his evasiveness, it just adds fuel to the fire. The twoofer will continue to spew lunacy until he is ignored.

But if we choose to ignore every idiot who recycles thoroughly discredited junk, what's the point of this sub-forum? As Mackey observed two years ago, there is nothing to debate. The "truthers" are wrong about everything.

 

[Quad4_72]

But if we choose to ignore every idiot who recycles thoroughly discredited junk, what's the point of this sub-forum? As Mackey observed two years ago, there is nothing to debate. The "truthers" are wrong about everything.

Exactly. Eventually this sub forum is going to be closed. The ONLY reason it is open right now is because JREF members continue to fall into the same old twoofer traps. They keep engaging twoofers who are here to troll, not looking for any sort of truth whatsoever. In my opinion, its about time to close the sub forum and just have a regular conspiracy theories section. If everyone would just ignore those known trolls, such as ibis, galileo, tweeter, ultima, etc then the madness would come to an end.

 

[T.A.M.]

Exactly. Eventually this sub forum is going to be closed. The ONLY reason it is open right now is because JREF members continue to fall into the same old twoofer traps. They keep engaging twoofers who are here to troll, not looking for any sort of truth whatsoever. In my opinion, its about time to close the sub forum and just have a regular conspiracy theories section. If everyone would just ignore those known trolls, such as ibis, galileo, tweeter, ultima, etc then the madness would come to an end.

Quad:

Some of us do not want this forum to close. As much as I am annoyed by the rabble that poses for truthers on this forum these days, the forum still serves as a place to discuss issues, to post the latest tidbits. In addition, it is a wonderful place to archive for future reference, and who knows what we might add over the long haul.

For instance, had we taken your advice, and closed this forum down, lets say 4 months ago, we would not have had the great discussion on the new Jones Paper.

I am totally in agreement with simply ignoring or posting a one liner link to the trolls, when they are trolling, but do we really want to shut the place down? I don't.

TAM

 

[apathoid]

Good thread Myriad, and I like Hokulele's approach as well. We shouldn't keep tripping over each other to address long debunked nonsense every time a truther tries to derail a discussion. As a member of the rationalist movement, I have long realized that truthers don't ask questions hoping for an explanation or the facts; they do it to make a statement. They don't want a debate, they don't want answers. They are playing a game and we almost always play right into their hands, even if we collectively hand them an "epic pwnage" - in their minds, they still win.

 

[T.A.M.]

Exactly. Eventually this sub forum is going to be closed. The ONLY reason it is open right now is because JREF members continue to fall into the same old twoofer traps. They keep engaging twoofers who are here to troll, not looking for any sort of truth whatsoever. In my opinion, its about time to close the sub forum and just have a regular conspiracy theories section. If everyone would just ignore those known trolls, such as ibis, galileo, tweeter, ultima, etc then the madness would come to an end.

Addressing this point. The reason this forum got a 9/11 CT subforum in the first place, was due to the overwhelming size of the "Screw Loose Change" threads that were here. They were so long, the traffic on them so heavy, that the 9/11 CT's got their own subforum as a result. I think going to just a CT forum will overwhelm that area (which even now has more than its fair share of "truther" threads) with the same stuff.

TAM

 

[Jackanory]

For the curious, however, UAL received many truckloads of material, nearly all of it contaminated with human remains, and packaged it into shipping containers and stored it, probably forever, at an underground document storage facility so that nobody could buy the recycled metal and sell grim souvenirs.

And the public information office at UAL would have told RI this had he been brave enough to call.

I would like to add a hugely important reminder to this Ben.

The families of the victims of all flights from 911 where privvy to most of the evidence that the truther skeptic dispute. Famly members have personally listened too audio tapes from CPR, have personally seen FDR, have personaly seen Radar, have personaly viewed recovered aircraft wreckage, have personaly visited the incident sites, the morgues, the evidence holding areas, identified belongings, have had personal discussions with investigating teams, FBI, NYPD, NYFD, DNA researchers etc etc etc. Mostly very early on in the investigation. This is fact. It is common knowledge. It is documented. This cannot be disputed. (except by truthers).

We have a plethora of forums that provide a myriad of evidence for whoever wishes to view it. We all have equal access to it and we all read the same words, watch the same videos, listen to the same arguements for and against.

Yet truthers skeptics, who can obviously use a PC and can obviously use any search function for research purposes, continue to regurgitate BS and misinterpret it for their own purposes. They see the same as everyone else (unless its been edited/doctored) yet deceitfully interpret it to simply mean an inside job/conspiracy.

Example -

Bill Smith discusses antenna and guide wires for about 35 posts. Pictures and videos are posted. He acknowledges the guide wires. He even posts a picture with them in. Yet the following day, in a seperate thread, he states not to have seen any guide wires and posts an identical picture showing none! When called on this by a number of posters, he denied it.

This is a very common tactic used by many truther skeptics here. Blatent lies. Blatent misleading. Blatent trolling. Blatent deception - and all done under the pretense of finding the truth.

It is these posts that add nothing to an education foundation and it is these posts/posters that should be moderated/warned/suspended/banned if they persist.

Mods are prepared to moderate threads from an 'on topic' stance. Why cant the same be done for repeat regurgitation of the same BS from specific posters?

 

[Quad4_72]

Quad:

Some of us do not want this forum to close. As much as I am annoyed by the rabble that poses for truthers on this forum these days, the forum still serves as a place to discuss issues, to post the latest tidbits. In addition, it is a wonderful place to archive for future reference, and who knows what we might add over the long haul.

For instance, had we taken your advice, and closed this forum down, lets say 4 months ago, we would not have had the great discussion on the new Jones Paper.

I am totally in agreement with simply ignoring or posting a one liner link to the trolls, when they are trolling, but do we really want to shut the place down? I don't.

TAM

You see I agree with this. If you want to keep the sub forum open to discuss new events, that's fine. But JREF members really need to stop responding to the known trolls. That is the main point I am trying to get across. It serves absolutely no purpose, except furthering their trolling.

 

[T.A.M.]

You see I agree with this. If you want to keep the sub forum open to discuss new events, that's fine. But JREF members really need to stop responding to the known trolls. That is the main point I am trying to get across. It serves absolutely no purpose, except furthering their trolling.

Agreed. 100%.

TAM

 

[Foolmewunz]

Well, I'm certainly not.

However, on the context of being on a discussion forum, I'm open to having alternative methods for discussion .... discussed. Wouldn't you like to add a few more tools to your repertoire? Isn't it a good idea every now and then to review options for responding? Particularly when it is clear that the current options aren't working and need refreshed?

By not working I mean that people are still being led down a path by trolls - Galileo has all but blatently stated "I will say anything at all here to get this thread up to 10 more pages in length - ha ha ha" and people still respond in the same format. In this very thread we have a minor derail which I hope is over now, when RedIbis ignored a few of the more considered posts directed specifically at him, and instead set you all a challenge - which several people jumped to, regardless of this thread's actual topic.

As I said earlier, you can all continue with the status quo, and either drive off your opponents making this the most stagnant part of the forum, or forcing more and more moderation, making this the section most likely to be shut down.

Why is it that when someone comes up with a suggestion as to alternative - possibly better - ways to handle a discussion people jump to the conclusion that they are being ordered to act in a certain manner? All that's been suggested is an alterative to the current bait taking that's going on. In some contexts taking the bait and asking questions is appropriate - not always though. Why not give some consideration to your posts before responding? That's all that's being asked.

As I said, whatever floats your boat. I feel this is a board of individuals and that I think those individuals can decide for themselves how they wish to react to the CTists.

And since your post was in direct response to mine, may I ask what leads you to think I don't think through my responses.

Frankly, I find this whole thing a bit condescending towards the regulars in the CT section. Many of the same complaints about truthers apply to homeopaths. The homeopaths just have their own act down a little better and talk all sciencey and stuff. But, we could refuse to take the bait from them, be polite and organized, and put them on ignore the minute it is apparent they want to just score points and not actually engage in a discussion.

Then we could do the same for Sylvia Browne fans. And Bigfooters. And UFOlogists. And surely The Professor and Jim Callahan and the others in the "Out To Make A Name For Themselves - Anti-Randi Brigade".

And pretty soon you either have:
All Woos posting in a skeptical vacuum. Or a deadly dull and boring forum.

And maybe Randi could take the same approach. Just put the crazies and liars on ignore. Why bother with the MDC or SWIFT. They're all wrong. We know they're wrong. So let's be content in our superiority.

 

[apathoid]

{snip}

This is a very common tactic used by many truther skeptics here. Blatent lies. Blatent misleading. Blatent trolling. Blatent deception - and all done under the pretense of finding the truth.

It is these posts that add nothing to an education foundation and it is these posts/posters that should be moderated/warned/suspended/banned if they persist.

Mods are prepared to moderate threads from an 'on topic' stance. Why cant the same be done for repeat regurgitation of the same BS from specific posters?

Unfortunately - lying, trolling, willful deception, obfuscation, well poisoning, logical fallacies, etc etc etc are not breaches of the MA and will not be subject to moderator action. If they were, there would be no more truthers left in this forum.