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Question for Ryan Mackey

Ive been here for approximately 17 months...do the math, and that is on average 17-18 posts per day for me, yet I have heard many a peeved truther criticize me for having no life except for posting on this site.

At an average of 30-40 seconds per post, that is about 12-15 minutes per day of posting.

Add about double that for reading, and you get about 30-45 minutes a day....

TAM:)
 
So you think those are improbable scenarios? Why? Are you stating that in the 1960's none of those scenarios are possible? Or are you stating structural engineers design buildings based upon past events only?
Your evasion is noted. The task necessary to validate your theory has been made known to you. So go out and get the example or examples of passenger jets in the late 1960s or earlier flying at 600 mph and low altitude and subsequently crashing into a building.

Such events would surely be highly newsworthy events, so you shouldn't have much difficulty finding accounts.

If you can't find any records of such events, your theory is sunk. Also, see 1337m4n's reply to you in post #148.
 
Ah credentials.

I've worked in the broadcast business for almost 4 decades.

I met John Dean shortly after Watergate and countless politicians and celebs ever since.

Does that give me credibility?

Not a bit.

Does working for NASA make Ryan a credible NIST defender?

You decide.

Having met so many people that are famous but started out as ordinary folk who need to use the crapper just like I do, I'm not in awe of their labels.

If what they say has quality than they do.

If they are so trapped by their arrogant belief in the validity of the worship from the rank-in-file, than I have no respect or faith in them what so ever.

MM

I met god once.
 
Substantiate???

Need I point to all the references from your adoring group of sycophants here in JREF Ryan?

Come on man, I don't question your intelligence so please don't waste your time playing me for a fool!

MM

No one has to play you for a fool. You do quite a good job for yourself.
 
What a bunch of crap.

No, the real design was for a lost plane. Lost in the fog. The only pilots lost in the fog trying to land are SHORT on fuel (and judgment) and think they have to land or run out of fuel. They are configured to land, they are slow. OOPs, this is the design the WTC meets. Period.

There is no mechanical failure you can give me in a 707 that will make me hit the WTC at 600 mph. Zip.

I like the FAA controller error. Yes flight dumb14 please descend to 700 feet and fly 600 mph. DUMB as dirt. A pilot does not have to do stupid stuff when a controller goes nuts. Sorry, strike 13!

The buildings were not designed to withstand a collision with an plane. The calculations were done after the buildings were completed.

The buildings were designed to provide office space and resist gravity. Nothing more.
 
So you think those are improbable scenarios? Why? Are you stating that in the 1960's none of those scenarios are possible? Or are you stating structural engineers design buildings based upon past events only?
Or do structural engineers just lack imagination when they consider safety issues?



Your comment is based upon what is reasonable and what is not.

Can you source that from the Journal of Structural Engineering, please?

What reasons do you have to doubt the WTC White Paper? What reasons can you provide to not accept it as factual?

Did the structural engineers who produced that design criteria lie? If so, can you provide evidence?

If they did, why did NIST include it in their report?

The burden of proof is on you to prove the structural engineers who produced the WTC White Paper wrong. Your opinion on what is reasonable or not is rejected especially in light of the fact the engineers were ultra conservative in the design of their building.

I suspect the biggest reason for promoting the slow moving plane comment is to avoid responsibility for structural design failures and thus avoid litigation measures that could be taken.

I won't entertain discussions on the possibility that NIST used the slow moving plane design parameter to cover up the potential use of explosive devices in the destruction of the buildings.

Which would lead to the question, if the building's design was to meet the 607 mph 707 criteria as the white paper states, then we have either a structural design failure (lawsuit) or explosive devices (terrorists in the towers). So NIST promoted the slow moving plane to cover both bases, in my opinion.

Why are you harassing B Mackey at work?
 
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Everybody please go back to the OP as a reminder of the topic. I am moving several posts to AAH for bickering, and some others to Forum Management for discussing moderating.

Be a little bit more civil and polite to each other, please, and keep the thread on topic.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero
 
1. You don't have the whitepaper??

My dog ate it.

How am I supposed to criticize it if neither you nor I have it?​
Why would you want to criticize it? Do you not trust the engineering firm and the engineers who designed the towers? Are you qualified in the field to criticize the firm's design parameters? I'm not.
You realize that by not accepting the white paper you are calling the structural engineers incompetent or liars. That burden of proof thing you taught me about so long ago.;)


2. You don't have a requirement that the structures should have survived a 600 MPH aircraft impact?
I trust the head structural engineer who designed the building and his firm's analysis. I'm not in a position to criticize their parameters.
Why don't you trust them?
What is required and what is designed are two different things of course. Again, why don't you trust the structural engineers who designed the building? Or why if you want to default to NIST, why do you think NIST did not trust the engineers who designed the building?

If there was no requirement, then there's no reason to believe the structures were designed with that in mind.​
Again, why don't you trust the structural engineers who designed the building? Do building codes require structures to be over designed or are they bare minimum standards that engineers must follow? And considering the engineers over designed the building in the first place, why would they chose to design their building based upon what is arguably the least case scenario regarding plane impacts...eg, slow speed?

What can I talk about if you dodge the majority of my points?;)

P.S.: You're welcome! By the way, don't try that "I Pay Your Salary"argument on a state patrol officer, if you ever get pulled over. ;)
:newlol I will take that advice!

Ok, setting aside our differences, what kind of work are you doing at JPL? I'm curious because my brother-in-law works at Honeywell within their commercial satellite division (for lack of a better term), specifically working on satellite navigation systems.

I wonder what those folks think about Pdoh, and his > 200 PPD average. He's got a direct neural implant? He has 200 arms, and an equal number of personalities? He's a time traveler? What, I ask you, what??
Hmm, one puppet with many hands?


Crungy-We have a winner! If anyone has a weekend to spare and fully stocked liqour cabinet, then I'll share with you stories from the wonderful, wonderful world of the "value engineering" phase of a project.
Ever try to get a $500 million dollar construction loan? It ain't easy...
SD continues to amaze with his complete lack of understanding of the design and construction industry....
Have you read any of the comments from the structural engineers who designed the building and produced the most complete and thorough analysis of a building at the time in response to a potentially devastating lawsuit?
TAM-Ive been here for approximately 17 months...do the math, and that is on average 17-18 posts per day for me, yet I have heard many a peeved truther criticize me for having no life except for posting on this site.
At an average of 30-40 seconds per post, that is about 12-15 minutes per day of posting.Add about double that for reading, and you get about 30-45 minutes a day....
TAM
Who accused you of having no life? If you can source that I will be sure to correct them. You have the most honorable career on JREF.

tsig-Why are you harassing B Mackey at work?
Huh? Who is B Mackey? I'm aware of a Ryan Mackey. And to be frankly honest, I live far far away from JPL.

Corsair 115
Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
So you think those are improbable scenarios? Why? Are you stating that in the 1960's none of those scenarios are possible? Or are you stating structural engineers design buildings based upon past events only?
Your evasion is noted. The task necessary to validate your theory has been made known to you. So go out and get the example or examples of passenger jets in the late 1960s or earlier flying at 600 mph and low altitude and subsequently crashing into a building.
Such events would surely be highly newsworthy events, so you shouldn't have much difficulty finding accounts.
If you can't find any records of such events, your theory is sunk. Also, see 1337m4n's reply to you in post #148.
No evasion what so ever.
Corsair, do structural engineers design buildings based upon what they know will happen or what they think might happen?
You realize your calling into question the integrity and competence of the structural engineers who designed the building by following this line of logic.

One of the considerations of the design of the building according to the 1964 white paper is that the Tower would be able to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind after all the perimeter columns on one face and some of the columns on each adjacent face had been cut. I'm not sure if NIST considered this parameter.

Now when engineers considered that parameter, Corsair, were they aware of a past high rise building that had all of its perimeter columns cut from one face and some on the adjacent face and then suffered a global collapse from 100 mile per hour sustained winds? I think you understand now how absurd your point is which is why I won't consider it.
 
Swingy with the exception of flights 11 and 175 produce evidence of an incident where a commercial aircraft flew at those altitudes and at those speeds in that airspace since 1964, I certainly cant find any.
 
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tsig-Why are you harassing B Mackey at work?

Huh? Who is B Mackey? I'm aware of a Ryan Mackey. And to be frankly honest, I live far far away from JPL.

Swing D ~ You made a post at ATS that listed Ryans name and fellow workers names. You also gave the e-mail adresses to his supervisors encouraging the members at that forum to contact them. You then called him a liar. I made a request to the mods to have that contact information removed as there was not any reason it be posted.
 
Corsair, do structural engineers design buildings based upon what they know will happen or what they think might happen.

I'm not a structural engineer, but I am a civil engineer who is licensed in three states and I've managed the new construction and rehabilitation of large structures.

Structural engineers can not see into the future. Therefore they can not know with certainty the maximum load that a building (or whatever else they are designing) will be subjected to.

Of course, they do have to make reasonable assumptions about what may happen to the building. They rely on codes, specs and their engineering judgement to determine the design loading and the factors of safety associated with the loading.

They do not design to a standard which exceeds the worst case scenario. As a matter of fact, they commonly design to a standard that is less than what has already happened in the past.

I'm on a large roadway project now, and I am required to install a noise wall. This noise wall must be designed so that it can withstand 125 MPH winds. There have been numerous hurricanes that have had wind speeds in excess of 125 MPH.

Heck, I've designed drainage systems to a ten year storm before. This means that the drainage system is expected to fail (flood) once every ten years (statistically speaking).

Your comments regarding how structural engineers should establish design requirements lead me to believe that you have little to no knowledge about the subject.

If you are really interested in finding out the answer to your quoted question you can either:

 
Oh I see, so pilots, planes, structural engineers, and physics always obey FAR 91.117 regulations.

No, of course they don't. It would probably help to have some knowledge of the FARs before posting, though. Not all flights are part 91 - some are 135, and most of the commercial flights are part 121.
 
Excellent point. This of course lead to the multi-million dollar multi-year report whose recommendation was....drum roll please....better fireproofing and exit path markings!

Out of the 18 recommendations submitted to the International Code Council in relation to the WTC Attacks, only 7 were accepted and none of them had to do with the actual design of the building!
Source here.

You have to remember that with a body like the ICC a proposal might be well-intended but disapproved for many reasons. For example: the NIST proposed code change to the IFC regarding redundant fire risers (F221 for code cycle 2006/2007) was disapproved for the following reasons:

Committee Reason: Standpipe control valves are already required to be monitored and NFPA 14 already requires redundancy. The increased number of control valves could increase the possibility of inadvertent valve closures, especially in multi-story express risers. The proposal is unclear as to how continuous riser feed would be provided if one riser failed. Better correlation with NFPA 14 is needed.

It is not unusual for a proposed code change to go through several code cycle reviews. You should have seen how long it took for ASHRAE 60.1 to be incorporated into/referenced in the IMC!
 
Swing, please learn to format replies properly.

My dog ate it.

Why would you want to criticize it? Do you not trust the engineering firm and the engineers who designed the towers? Are you qualified in the field to criticize the firm's design parameters? I'm not.
You realize that by not accepting the white paper you are calling the structural engineers incompetent or liars. That burden of proof thing you taught me about so long ago.

Okay -- first you accuse me of "doubting" it, then you ask why I would want to criticize it?

Now you say I'm accusing them of being "liars?" Ridiculous.

If I don't even know what this alleged whitepaper even says -- the one that you say your dog ate :rolleyes: -- then how can I accuse them of being "liars?"

Many claims have been made about what this whitepaper supposedly showed, most claims originating from the Truth Movement. The normal story is that the whitepaper claimed (back in 1964, I believe) that a high-speed collision would leave the Towers standing, without killing people far away from the impact zone.

Depending on the details of what that paper really said, that claim may have been accurate. It all depends on whether they were referring to the structure standing immediately after impact, or if they meant long after impact. The former would be correct. The latter is wrong. They also might have put in language stating that they could not attempt an analysis of the fire that would ensue, and that also would be correct -- to the extent of their assumptions.

But, since once again, nobody has seen this whitepaper, you can't use it in support of your argument. We just don't have the calculation. If the calclations were correct, someone should be able to replicate them. Nobody has.

I'm not in a position to call those who worked on this paper, whomever they are, incompetent until I see the calculations. My guess is they used grossly simple assumptions and did the best they could with the tools of the time. That's not incompetence, that's a technological limit.

So stop trying to tell me what I'm doing, tell me I'm calling someone a liar, etc. You do enjoy putting words in my mouth.

I trust the head structural engineer who designed the building and his firm's analysis. I'm not in a position to criticize their parameters.
Why don't you trust them?
What is required and what is designed are two different things of course. Again, why don't you trust the structural engineers who designed the building? Or why if you want to default to NIST, why do you think NIST did not trust the engineers who designed the building?

Who, exactly, are you saying that I "distrust?" Give me names. What parameters do you say I "distrust?" Show them to me.

Requirements are requirements. If the structure was not required to survive such a hellacious impact, there is no reason to suspect it would have, since this would involve a drastically hardened structure. This is a pretty feeble misdirection on your part.

Trusting "the structural engineers who designed the building" means trusting Leslie Robertson, the engineer of record. He stated to the BBC that the Towers were intended to handle a slow-speed impact, but not a high-speed impact. I trust him in this regard. It appears that it is you who do not.

NIST disputes that the Towers should have survived the impact simply because there is no evidence that they should have. All the calculations point strongly in the other direction. This is also the result arrived at by Eagar, Bazant, Usmani, Lane, and every other researcher who's ever published a result. I stand in good company. Their work is available for inspection. You've got nothing.

Again, why don't you trust the structural engineers who designed the building? Do building codes require structures to be over designed or are they bare minimum standards that engineers must follow? And considering the engineers over designed the building in the first place, why would they chose to design their building based upon what is arguably the least case scenario regarding plane impacts...eg, slow speed?

The issue of "trust" is dealt with. What you appear to trust is a lone, brief whitepaper from 40 years ago -- strike that, you trust someone else's summary of a lone whitepaper, a summary that is ambiguous. What I trust are (a) the comments of the Engineer of Record, (b) the calculations in NIST, and (c) the corroborating work of dozens of other scientists.

You cannot possibly believe that a structure designed to handle a slow-speed impact just might have enough margin to handle a 600 MPH impact. This is not a simple round-off error we're talking about, Swing. This is an entirely different category of disaster. In terms of relative energy, this is like donning a bulletproof vest designed to stop 9mm Para bullets, and then being surprised when a .300 Mag goes right through you and into the next county.

I believe this is called "special pleading." It's pathetic. Stop it. If you have calculations backing up your claim that the Towers should have stayed up, show them already. But you don't.

Ok, setting aside our differences, what kind of work are you doing at JPL? I'm curious because my brother-in-law works at Honeywell within their commercial satellite division (for lack of a better term), specifically working on satellite navigation systems.

I'm a developer of artificial intelligence technologies. Nothing that's flown in space -- yet. I'm leading a spaceflight experiment due to launch next June.
 
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What reasons do you have to doubt the WTC White Paper? What reasons can you provide to not accept it as factual?

Did the structural engineers who produced that design criteria lie? If so, can you provide evidence?

The paper you to refer to is "Salient points with regard to the structural design of the WorldTradeCenter towers" and it was written by Malcolm P. Levy, a Port Authority Engineer in 1964.

No where in that report is there a discussion regarding what effect jet fuel would have in a 707 crashing into the
WorldTradeCenter.

Leslie Robertson was interviewed for the American Experience documentary, The Center of the World and said, "what we didn't look at is what would happen to all that fuel and perhaps we could be faulted for that." They were much more concerned with the effect of high winds on the towers.

 
Swing D ~ You made a post at ATS that listed Ryans name and fellow workers names. You also gave the e-mail adresses to his supervisors encouraging the members at that forum to contact them. You then called him a liar. I made a request to the mods to have that contact information removed as there was not any reason it be posted.

Well lets see if the facts stand up to your allegations. If not you, sir are lying.

What it amounts to is a public service announcement. I suppose people could have went here to address the issue. And please point to the post below where I called him a liar, if not I decry sir, that you are the liar.

My post at ABS:
If you are sincerely interested in investigating the potential waste of tax payer money through Ryan Mackey's participation on JREF forums during JPL work hours in an attempt to debunk 9/11 conspiracy theories, I would suggest contacting his supervisors.

The link to his supervisors can be found here: NASA JPL Explorationn

Their email addresses are:
Dr. Anna Tavormina, Section Manager
[email removed]

Dr. Thomas Yunck, Deputy Section Manager
[email removed]

If you are an American citizen paying taxes, then there is a legitimate concern , that is all. I for one care not what time of the day that Ryan posts but others might.
 
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Well lets see if the facts stand up to your allegations. If not you, sir are lying.

What it amounts to is a public service announcement. I suppose people could have went here to address the issue. And please point to the post below where I called him a liar, if not I decry sir, that you are the liar.

My post at ABS:


If you are an American citizen paying taxes,Conspiracy liar attempting to silence debunker's then there is a legitimate concern , that is all.
fixed that for ya

Be civil - do not change names in quote boxes.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero
 
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Well lets see if the facts stand up to your allegations. If not you, sir are lying.

What it amounts to is a public service announcement. I suppose people could have went here to address the issue. And please point to the post below where I called him a liar, if not I decry sir, that you are the liar.

My post at ABS:


If you are an American citizen paying taxes, then there is a legitimate concern , that is all. I for one care not what time of the day that Ryan posts but others might.

Where do you work swing? Or do you not have a job and just suck off taxpayers?

How do you have such expertise? School? Work? Nether regions?
 

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