Question for doctors

[anonimouse]

An anti-vaxer I deal with on another board suggested that drug companies "control the curriculum" at medical schools. How much influence, if any, do drug companies have other med school curriculum? Her claim was that what doctors know about vaccination is taught to them by Big Pharma.

 

[materia3]

An anti-vaxer I deal with on another board suggested that drug companies "control the curriculum" at medical schools. How much influence, if any, do drug companies have other med school curriculum? Her claim was that what doctors know about vaccination is taught to them by Big Pharma.

Hmm...no, drug companies who make vaccines do not control curricula at medical schools. Drug companies may sponsor colloquia, seminars and even entire medical journals but they don't control the curricula of med schools.

Many drugs are detailed by pharmaceutical reps to interns, residents and graduate physicians. Doctors may or may not listen to these reps, sometimes learning something from them and sometimes teaching them a thing or two. It's a two way street.

Of all the drugs on the market, I can't think of having encountered any rep pushing vaccines ever. They are just not marketed or sold this way on this level. A lot of other stuff sure, but not vaccines so the whole premise of your anti-vaxxer's assertion is invalid.

 

[Anders]

An anti-vaxer I deal with on another board suggested that drug companies "control the curriculum" at medical schools. How much influence, if any, do drug companies have other med school curriculum? Her claim was that what doctors know about vaccination is taught to them by Big Pharma.

Well, I have a lab coat, sponsered by a very large pharma. Do they control curriculum anyware. Wouldn't think so, but who could tell. Medecine can't be tought in so many ways.

 

[Suezoled]

An anti-vaxer I deal with on another board suggested that drug companies "control the curriculum" at medical schools. How much influence, if any, do drug companies have other med school curriculum? Her claim was that what doctors know about vaccination is taught to them by Big Pharma.

Are they talking about US medical schools? UK medical schools? Australian? As far as I know, med schools all over the world teach pretty much the same thing; maybe some material is looked at a little more intensely than others, but if, say, a UK student is studying to specialize in Gastroenterology and a Canadian student is as well, and a Pakistani student, I really don't think the Big Pharma would have the influence to hold in thrall the curriculum of all these students, and if they only have one or two, the inconsistencies would be apparent, and not-complementary. If Big Pharma is after all controlling every worthwhile medical school in the entire world, I shudder to think how far they go back too... do they influence state colleges? Graduate programs? What about Grammer Schools? Public schools? Private Schools?
Isn't this anti-vax woman not afraid for her life and the life of her family??? Run for it! Fun now! They're onto you! Run before they immunize you against smallpox!

 

[Zombified]

There's more to any scientific or technical training than "revealed wisdom."

Medical schools (I assume) actually have to explain why and how vaccines and medications work, and not merely train students to parrot the right answers. Some of those lessons will be in the form of lab work where the work doesn't come out right if the science isn't real.

I had the same experience learning physics. When you actually do NMR in a lab, it's pretty hard to claim the theory is just made up by evil corporations. That's why I find similar claims by pseudo-physics loons on the 'net rather funny.

I think that claim says more about the state of your anti-vaxxers education than the state of education itself...

 

[Dr. Imago]

An anti-vaxer I deal with on another board suggested that drug companies "control the curriculum" at medical schools.

Has he himself been to medical school? Has he taught in medical school? What knowledge does he have of the medical school curriculum, outside of his speculation? Has he seen the medical school curriculum?

That's what you should ask him, how he knows this.

How much influence, if any, do drug companies have other med school curriculum? Her claim was that what doctors know about vaccination is taught to them by Big Pharma.

Absolute rubbish. If anything, most "ivory tower" professors, especially during the pre-clinical part (i.e., first two years) of medical school have a high level of disdain for pharma companies, who don't really provide much (if any) of the funding for their research... which is, I'm sure, what this anti-vaxer is insinuating or misrepresenting as part of his position. Most of them are bench PhDs, and they have next to ZERO interaction with pharma.

In the clinical years, the docs at the university teaching hospitals are on salary. They are academic researchers (most of them) involved in their own projects. Therefore, they don't listen to big pharma - they actually tell big pharma what to do, especially at the big institutions. We don't even use brand names of pharmaceutical compounds in school (which is a little difficult to get used to when you actually get into the clinic; you have to re-learn a lot of medicines you already know by their brand names).

This guy's insinuation is garbage. He's making the assertion; he should prove it. My guess is this is just some hot-air notion he dreamed up to support his crackpot theories, and he has no real idea of what he's talking about. At least, this has fully been my experience in medical school: pharma companies have no say in my curriculum. Not everything in medicine is about giving medicines.

-TT

 

[Anders]

Without big pharma, many more people would suffer and die prematurely. No wait, that can’t be, because big pharma kill little children with vaccines and that’s their marketing strategy!

 

[Dr. Imago]

Re: Re: Question for doctors

Many drugs are detailed by pharmaceutical reps to interns, residents and graduate physicians. Doctors may or may not listen to these reps, sometimes learning something from them and sometimes teaching them a thing or two. It's a two way street.

During a recent rotation I was in, we had a drug rep bring a speaker to "Grand Rounds". It was presented to us as a "new use for an old drug" that was still branded and protected by patent. This physician, who was hired by the pharma company, then went on to talk about, among the pros and cons of all the other current therapies, a controversial off-label usage for this particular medication.

Long story short, we ate the bagels, listened to the spiel, and then had a short Q & A in which some difficult and challenging questions were asked.

Afterwards, one of my teaching attendings said to me, "That drug is garbage and there's much better treatments out there. No one is ever going to use that crap."

And that, folks, is what really goes on when big pharma shows up.

-TT

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Sodakboy93,

Ask your antivaxer 'friend' whether he can provide any evidence that the people who define the med school curricula are characterized by gullibility, ignorance of the scientific method and lack of ability to think critically, in addition to mere greed which surely must be evidenced by the huge kick-back sums taken out of secret Big Pharma budgets and stashed away in obscure bank accounts in the Caymans and in Switzerland.

Ask him whether those 'in the know', i.e. the Big Pharma/med school conspirators, shun immunization and other real medication and procedures and don mouse brown overcoats, sun glasses and wide brimmed hats pulled down over their faces and sneak themselves and thier loved ones incognito to SCAMmers in the cover of winter darkness when they need tratment - the conspirators surely must know that scientific medicine is evil and non-effective and that SCAM the real deal.

Ask him what the logic is in supporting immunization programs providing herd immunity and eventually eradicating diseases, which means that the Big Pharma companies eventually lose the vaccine business, in addition to business they've already lost in treating victims of epidemics as epidemics are prevented by vaccination programs.

Ask him whether Big Pharma prefers profiting from the sale of medication, such as antibiotics, to counter the effects of the fungal and bacterial infections that often follow viral infections such as influenza rather than selling influenza-preventing vaccines?

Ask him whether there is any competition between Big Pharma companies and different types of medications and whether medication improves through development and experience - ask him whether Big Pharma has hindered medical progress since the days of Hahnemann.

Ask him if he enjoys being sick with polio, pertussis, tetanus, mumps, measels, chicken pox, influenza or whatever.

Ask him whether Big Pharma should drop all ambitions and research programs to counter such trivial ailments as HIV and cancer.

Ask him whether the medical and theraputic professions and industry should be firewalled from each other and not exchange research data and experience.

Ask him whether legislators should actively be kept completely ignorant of the scientific and technological issues they are commisioned to deal with by the voting public, as they otherwise run the risk of being adversely influenced by Big Pharma lobbyists and their med school puppets.

[DERAIL]BTW, Please also ask Sarah-I if she ever intends to answer any of the outstanding questions by providing evidence about the purported efficacy of homeopathy in connection with acute posioning, contraception, renal failure, aromatherapy, broken bones and the JREF Million to name but a few[/DERAIL]

 

[Chris Haynes]

That sounds so incredibly dumb, and easy to check out. Most universities have pretty decent websites that let you check out what the courses and requirements on.

I found the page for my university's Family Medicine program and found a couple of courses that "Big Pharma" would really frown about, like "Traditional Indian Medicine Clerkship":
http://www.fammed.washington.edu/fammed_courses.html

Editted to add... they even have a curriculum site which tells you who is reponsible:
http://eduserv.hscer.washington.edu/uwsom/fs2_committee.asp

Editted again to add this article... it tells how expensive it is to treat for pertussis. There seems to be a BIG difference between the cost of a vaccine and the cost of treating for the actual disease:
http://www.themonroetimes.com/o1111per.htm

 

[Boo]

Hey TT,

You forgot the free pens, pads of scratch paper and the dozen of other cheap goodies they toss out by the gross when visiting in house.


Boo

 

[Jyera]

An anti-vaxer I deal with on another board suggested that drug companies "control the curriculum" at medical schools. How much influence, if any, do drug companies have other med school curriculum? Her claim was that what doctors know about vaccination is taught to them by Big Pharma.

If a vaccine is researched, manufactured and sold by Big Pharma.
Then isn't it fairly logical that Big Pharma should know the most about it?
And isn't it then fairly natural, and much safer, that doctors acquires knowledge about that particular vaccination from the Big Pharma?

 

[Dr. Imago]

Re: Re: Question for doctors

If a vaccine is researched, manufactured and sold by Big Pharma.
Then isn't it fairly logical that Big Pharma should know the most about it?
And isn't it then fairly natural, and much safer, that doctors acquires knowledge about that particular vaccination from the Big Pharma?

They know the most about their particular vaccine, perhaps. But there is a lot more to understand how a vaccine actually works outside of just getting a shot in the arm! Furthermore, saying the pharma companies "educate" is a bit like the cart pulling the horse. In actuality, these vaccines are often developed (or at least the bench technology) in the university setting and then licensed or sold to pharma, not the other way around.

I had another thought on this... about pharma and CME (and how this anti-vax wooer is getting confused, maybe)... will get to later... but I gotta run because our 9:00 AM EGD patient is here and it's time to stick a tube down her throat...

-TT

 

[Anders]

Hey TT,

You forgot the free pens, pads of scratch paper and the dozen of other cheap goodies they toss out by the gross when visiting in house.
Boo

So does all companies that recruits from universities. Pens, paper, cruises, food, free drinks, trips around Europe, books, is some of the free stuff I received while studying electrical engineering. BCG, Anderson Consulting (became Accenture) were very good at sponsoring, Ericsson as well.

 

[anonimouse]

For the record, I agree with everything people have said and did not even begin to think that drug companies had even a modest influence on the curriculum at medical schools. I just wanted people who actually went to said schools to confirm that suspicion.

And I'm still wondering where MY free stuff was - I guess journalism majors don't get cruises or free pens.

 

[Anders]

For the record, I agree with everything people have said and did not even begin to think that drug companies had even a modest influence on the curriculum at medical schools. I just wanted people who actually went to said schools to confirm that suspicion.

And I'm still wondering where MY free stuff was - I guess journalism majors don't get cruises or free pens.

I'm sorry to hear that...