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Question about card shuffling.

clarsct

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Not a magician, and not looking for 'secrets' as it were.

If I had a deck of 40 red cards and 20 black cards that you had never seen before, would it be possible for you to shuffle the deck in front of me so that the 20 black cards were in the bottom half of the deck?
(Without being caught.;) )
I'm just asking if there was a way to do this, if anyone knows a method by which it could be done.
 
clarsct said:
Not a magician, and not looking for 'secrets' as it were.

If I had a deck of 40 red cards and 20 black cards that you had never seen before, would it be possible for you to shuffle the deck in front of me so that the 20 black cards were in the bottom half of the deck?
(Without being caught.;) )
I'm just asking if there was a way to do this, if anyone knows a method by which it could be done.
Click to expand...
yes its possible. yes I know a method. your not a magician so why would I share it?
 
Wasn't asking you to share.;)

I was asking if there is a way to do so with a deck you've never seen before. I walk in with a deck, but you know the ratio of black/red.

I shuffle it, then you shuffle it, without obviously looking. Then I can pull the first thirty+ cards from the top and find all red cards.

I'm looking to see what is possible, what is doable by your average, trained human being.

Could you put three black cards in the top ten, then the rest on the bottom? Is there any limit to how you could stack the deck, without most people noticing?
 
I believe what I will say below is within the spirit and intent of the rules against discussing how magic tricks are done. If it isn't then I apologize in advance.

I don't know how the trick is done, however, based on a reading of books on card tricks, I believe it is possible for some skilled individuals to shuffle a deck so as to produce a perfect interleave.

In thinking about the OP post question it seems like if one were able to shuffle so as to produce a perfect two to one interleave from a stack of forty cards and a stack of twenty cards and then one were able to produce a perfect interleave from two equal stacks one could, with a sufficient number of shuffles, arrive at the point that the all the cards of one color were together and stacked above the cards of the other color.

Personally, I wouldn't have guessed that it was even possible to shuffle with a perfect interleave when stacks of equal size are used, but it seems that it might be. Whether it is possible to do a perfect interleave with stacks of different sizes I don't know but if it is, very high card manipulation skills would seem to be required.
 
When I was young, I had a cousin who can produce a result of 4 aces taken from the top of the deck after he shuffled it. I can't remember of he allowed us to shuffle the cards first before giving the deck to him.

But we also always fall for one of the "magic tricks" of the older cousins who told us that if we look very closely, we would be able to see a coin pop out of the onion as they slice it.
 
clarsct said:
Wasn't asking you to share.;)

I was asking if there is a way to do so with a deck you've never seen before. I walk in with a deck, but you know the ratio of black/red.

I shuffle it, then you shuffle it, without obviously looking. Then I can pull the first thirty+ cards from the top and find all red cards.

I'm looking to see what is possible, what is doable by your average, trained human being.

Could you put three black cards in the top ten, then the rest on the bottom? Is there any limit to how you could stack the deck, without most people noticing?
Click to expand...

It's possible but difficult. Learning to do these types of shuffles can take years of practice to perfect and look natural.

This would be more along the lines of gamblers moves, i.e. riffle stacking, etc.

There are books and videos available to learn these moves. Basic card handling technique is a prerequisite of learning advanced methods.
 
The OPer's scenarios are inconsistent. Why are you positing 40 cards -- 20 red, 20 black -- and then talk about the first thirty cards being red. Why not just assume a regular deck of 52 throughout?

Dave-
I don't think I'm giving anything away you don't already know, but it is absolutely possible to perfectly interleave the cards. It's a well-known shuffle and many skilled card magicians can do it nearly 100% of the time. Indeed, Darwin Ortiz can do it with one hand. And of course, as you'll learn in a lot of self-working, math-based books, eight such shuffles returns the deck to its original order.

Stacking a randomly mixed deck is not easy. Lennart Green has some interesting ideas on the appearance of chaos. He allows a spectator to very fairly shuffle a pack that he's already been mixing. Then spectators name out any card and he produces it in short order (without looking through the cards, of course).
 
jmontecillo01 said:
When I was young, I had a cousin who can produce a result of 4 aces taken from the top of the deck after he shuffled it. I can't remember of he allowed us to shuffle the cards first before giving the deck to him.
Click to expand...

Was it a stripper deck or a regular one?
 
Cain said:
Dave-
I don't think I'm giving anything away you don't already know, but it is absolutely possible to perfectly interleave the cards. It's a well-known shuffle and many skilled card magicians can do it nearly 100% of the time. Indeed, Darwin Ortiz can do it with one hand. And of course, as you'll learn in a lot of self-working, math-based books, eight such shuffles returns the deck to its original order.
Click to expand...
Your not giving anything away by revealing the faro.

Riffle stacking can be used to get control of the deck.
 
Just go to Youtube and punch in "perfect faro"; I'm sure you'd get some hits.

Your not giving anything away by revealing the faro.
Click to expand...

Well, it does sort of give something away. When a magician walks up and spreads the cards to show they're random and then gives them a couple of genuine (perfect shuffles) to restore a mem stack. This is what Michael Close does. He claims its better than doing false shuffles. Same goes for Darwin Ortiz.

Lennart Green, as I mentioned before, has some interesting ideas on the appearance of chaos. He says the layperson cacluates as follows: 3 faros = 2 riffle shuffles = 1 Rosetta Shuffle. This in spite of the fact that one faro (doesn't have to be perfect) shuffles the cards more than either of the other two. It's just a bit too neat.
 
Re: the OP - if you shuffled a normal deck and mixed it up properly then it would be very hard indeed, if not impossible, for someone to then shuffle it and sort out the black/red order without obviously looking at it.

But if you used the magician's pack it would be simple. Also, if you used your own pack but allowed the magician to shuffle it first and then you shuffled it, depending how you shuffled it, then it would be possible. In fact I do a trick which uses this last possibility, but in the UK we tend to do overhand shuffles and not riffles, which alters things.
 
Cain said:
The OPer's scenarios are inconsistent. Why are you positing 40 cards -- 20 red, 20 black -- and then talk about the first thirty cards being red. Why not just assume a regular deck of 52 throughout?
Click to expand...
Re-read the OP. It says 40 red cards and 20 black cards.

I have no idea why a 60-card deck is being used, but that's what it says.
 
RSLancastr said:
Re-read the OP. It says 40 red cards and 20 black cards.

I have no idea why a 60-card deck is being used, but that's what it says.
Click to expand...
while were on it, if I hand you a deck and tell you to false suffle it, it is that much more difficult to do it undetected, Of course gamblers wouldn't have a problem either way.
 
Cain said:
Lennart Green, as I mentioned before, has some interesting ideas on the appearance of chaos. He says the layperson cacluates as follows: 3 faros = 2 riffle shuffles = 1 Rosetta Shuffle. This in spite of the fact that one faro (doesn't have to be perfect) shuffles the cards more than either of the other two. It's just a bit too neat.
Click to expand...

I think that he might be right. When you see him perform the cards are flying everywhere and it is very difficult for people to realise that he knows what he is doing. And a Rosetta shuffle looks a lot more random than a riffle shuffle or a farao shuffle for the untrained eye.

It is of course possible to force conditions on a magician that will make it impossible for him to stack the deck to have 30 red cards on the top. But you would have to know a bit about cardwork to know how to set up the "experiment". Just handing him a shuffled deck of cards is not enough to make it impossible.
 
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