Quantum reality and Idealism

[Iacchus]

But but but...

It's like a radio, we all tune into diferent stations, that is proof of the universal transcendant!

Life is in the living!

Yes, I believe such a relationship exists!

 

[Zero]

Yes, I believe such a relationship exists!

And he was making fun of such a relationship...what a coincidence...

 

[Wudang]

Discredited no doubt by the same cold and lifeless system that suggests there's no such thing as human spirituality.

Well, one could put it in a warm and lively say and say that people actually looked at what he said and realised he was spouting a load of old tosh.

Work any better for you?

From working on farms I can assure you that a dung heap is warm and full of life. I wouldn't want to build on it though.

 

[lifegazer]

I say that through evolution, we have the neural structure we have today (and same with all other forms of life).

The question is, and it is a credible question: Are the forces which compelled matter to become life given by design? Which part of "evolution" shows that they weren't?

"An abstract experience such as 'hot' or 'cold' serves a purpose for the entity since it gives that entity an incentive to respond to its perceived environment. So, the first thing that we see is that abstract sensations are self-purposeful."

- Sensations that entities have may often be self-purposeful, but more often, they are species survival purposeful. The desire to mate has nothing to do with self purpose.

"Desire"? Where did this come from? I'm talking about sensations which concious-awareness just has, whether it desires them or not.
Stick to the issue at hand and stop trying to evade. All sensations serve the self. That is their purpose.

The desire to help others within the species has nothing to do with self purpose, etc, I can go on and on.

Well you are "going on and on" but are not addressing what I say.

"Now, as I said previously, the supposed external environment can do whatever it wants to the entity,"

The process occurs through mutation, and mutations ether help a life form survive, or hinder it from surviving (much more often hinder than help). The external environment (including other life forms) provide this natural selection.

Let's play creating an entity which has abstract experience:

Hit a rock with a hammer - does it feel pain? No. Okay then, why not? Because it does not recognise that it is being hit, for starters.
Okay then, so let's grant that rock the ability to know that it is being hit by a hammer - give it surface-receptors and a brain, as such, so that the rock knows it is being hit. Is it now feeling pain? No it bloody well isn't... it just has knowledge that it is being hit by a hammer.
The next part is where my philosophy kicks-in. An abstract sensation (pain) is chosen as a response to the knowledge that the rock is being hit by a hammer... and then an artisticly-creative abstract-sensation is imposed upon the intangible awareness of the entity as a whole, for self-purpose.
The entity is the primal-cause of its abstract sensation and no thing in the entire [supposed] external realm has had any effect upon this self-experience.

Right, your turn. Explain to this forum how "a mutation did it". Or is that what you were taught by science, so that's good enough for you?

 

[RussDill]

The question is, and it is a credible question: Are the forces which compelled matter to become life given by design? Which part of "evolution" shows that they weren't?

evolution proceeds by completely random mutation. Many muations have a negative effect, some have no effect at all. In fact, its very rare that a positive muation happens. If it was intelligent design, then a negative mutation would not be so unlikely. BTW, anyone suggesting any kind of intelligent design should probably read this:
http://www.skepticreport.com/creationism/vestigial.htm

"Desire"? Where did this come from? I'm talking about sensations which concious-awareness just has, whether it desires them or not.
Stick to the issue at hand and stop trying to evade. All sensations serve the self. That is their purpose.
Well you are "going on and on" but are not addressing what I say.

You talked about all sensations being self-purposeful. I provided examples that are not self-purposeful. There is a difference between not addressing what you say, and not agreeing with what you say. So once again, many sensations, desires, motivations, etc, are related to the survial of the species, not self. Desires connected to procreation are a good example (and sensations related to that), so are desires to save other members of the species. What I'm doing here is disproving your "self-purposeful" thing. Also, I would argue any basic emotions are sensations. You see a pretty woman, its akin to having a sensation, you are in love with someone, its an emotion, its pretty simalar to a sensation.

Let's play creating an entity which has abstract experience:

sigh...we allready went over this, why go in a circle....

Hit a rock with a hammer - does it feel pain? No. Okay then, why not? Because it does not recognise that it is being hit, for starters.
Okay then, so let's grant that rock the ability to know that it is being hit by a hammer - give it surface-receptors and a brain, as such, so that the rock knows it is being hit. Is it now feeling pain? No it bloody well isn't... it just has knowledge that it is being hit by a hammer.

OK, we allready went over this, and I showed you the evolution example that explains this. You came back with all the self-purposeful stuff, as well as a few other things, which I provided cases against...Instead of confronting them, you just claim that I'm not addressing the issue, then you start repeating yourself.

The next part is where my philosophy kicks-in. An abstract sensation (pain) is chosen as a response to the knowledge that the rock is being hit by a hammer... and then an artisticly-creative abstract-sensation is imposed upon the intangible awareness of the entity as a whole, for self-purpose.
The entity is the primal-cause of its abstract sensation and no thing in the entire [supposed] external realm has had any effect upon this self-experience.

Didn't I already show that many sensations are not self-purposeful, and then evolution can bring about sensation all on its own? And what you wrote above is not a proof or deduction, its just a series of assumptions.

Right, your turn. Explain to this forum how "a mutation did it". Or is that what you were taught by science, so that's good enough for you?

OK, with squid brains, its pretty simply, simple response, move away from pain. Its the same way our reflexed work. Pain on arm, spinal column moves arm away. Now, as creatures advance intelligence above the squid, and actually have to start doing a degree of decision making, a simple move away response is not the best response. Eventually, a mutation will come along that will provide a negative feeling in the brain, and over time, that feeling will be refined. Today, in the human brain, the result we have is a very complex and varied sensation we call pain. We can even feel pain as an emotional response.

If you are interesting in some more info on the pain response, check here:
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/PN/00017.html

 

[uruk]

What about those people who have a medical condition inwhich they cannot feel pain? How do they fit into your hypothesis?

I'll try to find a web reference to this condition.

 

[Dancing David]

I am so sorry I didn't see this sooner Lifegazer:


The next part is where my philosophy kicks-in. An abstract sensation (pain) is chosen as a response to the knowledge that the rock is being hit by a hammer... and then an artisticly-creative abstract-sensation is imposed upon the intangible awareness of the entity as a whole, for self-purpose.


So now pain is an artisticaly created abstract sensation that is self imposed?

That is just prime, up there with the Holocaust was nessecary for god to feel love.

If awareness is intangible how do you know it exists?

Pain is artistic, tell me that he next time you go to the dentist.

Why didn't pain just occur as a green hue to my flesh, that would be just as useful but a whole lot more pleasant.