• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Quantum mechanics unit problem

Is the eV considered part of the CGS system? I thought it was sort of free floating, not part of either system.

You are right, Pragmatist was talking about several things at the same time, but I don't think he was saying that. The energy unit in the CGS system is the erg. As he says, most workers in fundamental physics prefer CGS units to SI units, for several reasons. But of course at the end of the day one uses natural units.

The eV is a bit special in that it is neither natural, nor SI or CGS. But it is very convenient, so it is used with every system. The reason is that you don't know how much 9.1·10-28 g are, but you can get your mind around 511 keV/c2 (mass of the electron). Similarly, if you are working with EM radiation, the scale in eV is very easy to remember keV ~ x-rays, MeV ~ gamma, etc. but how much are 1017 Hz?
 
Is the eV considered part of the CGS system? I thought it was sort of free floating, not part of either system.

~~ Paul

Sorry, I didn't express myself well there. As Yllanes explained, I wasn't trying to imply it was part of cgs. It's somewhat universal and/or independent and not formally part of cgs or SI.

This was also part of my objection to Schneibster's calculation for h in "eV seconds". That is incompatible with just about every standard system of units.
 
ROFLMFAO, Pragmatist claims to know how physics works and doesn't understand that energy is energy, you always have to be able to convert the units to one another or you're at the mercy of memorized equations that you don't understand the derivation of.
 
BTW, Prag, it's OK to admit you don't know anything about dimensional analysis. It's pretty obvious anyway.
 
eV-s, J-s, erg-s: what's the difference ?

This was also part of my objection to Schneibster's calculation for h in "eV seconds". That is incompatible with just about every standard system of units.

The use of eV-s is fairly common in physics (especially when you deal with elementary particles). As long as you know that it is nothing but J-s [MKS] or erg-s [CGS] multiplied by the appropriate number, you don't have to worry about any special "system of units". The answer (which includes the number as well as the units) should be the same in all units.

(The Particle Data Group, the standard reference book for all particle physicists, in fact gives h/(2 pi) in the units of both, J-s as well as MeV-s: http://pdg.lbl.gov/2007/reviews/contents_sports.html#constantsetc . Go to "Physical Constants")

Going back to the factor of e^4 vs e^3 discussed earlier in the thread: the expressions that have e^3 in them are simply wrong, and one should not use them even if they are in the textbook. One should, rather, point out to the instructor (if any) that they are wrong and use the correct ones for solving problems.

-Dorman
 
The use of eV-s is fairly common in physics (especially when you deal with elementary particles). As long as you know that it is nothing but J-s [MKS] or erg-s [CGS] multiplied by the appropriate number, you don't have to worry about any special "system of units". The answer (which includes the number as well as the units) should be the same in all units.

(The Particle Data Group, the standard reference book for all particle physicists, in fact gives h/(2 pi) in the units of both, J-s as well as MeV-s: http://pdg.lbl.gov/2007/reviews/contents_sports.html#constantsetc . Go to "Physical Constants")


Oh, I know. I have no objection to anyone using eV. In fact I couldn't care less if anyone uses slugs and standard banana lengths! :D

The problem arises if you use the units inconsistently. My criticism is aimed at post #4 in this thread where Schneibster does two calculations to derive h and hbar in eV seconds. Having done so he then claims that it is obvious from a dimensional analysis (not given there) that the standard SI formula (with all inputs in SI units) will give an answer in eV. That is simply not true (as he himself confirms later in another post in which his dimensional analysis gives the answer in joules). Setting aside the issue of whether the answer is in joules or eV, the question arises, why did he bother to calculate h and hbar in eV seconds? The equation he stated is correct for SI which doesn't use eV seconds. eV seconds are not an SI unit. And he never bothered to give a form of the equation for which h in eV seconds would be valid - or explain which system of units would be required for the other variables if the same equation was used. The entire eV seconds calculation he gives above is meaningless and pointless in the context in which it is given.

That is my criticism. His calculation is misdirection, a sleight of hand. It looks impressive if you don't bother to actually check it - if you do, it doesn't make sense. Pointing that out does not imply that I have any problem with eV or eV seconds. The problem I have with it is inappropriate, inconsistent and meaningless use out of context.

Going back to the factor of e^4 vs e^3 discussed earlier in the thread: the expressions that have e^3 in them are simply wrong, and one should not use them even if they are in the textbook. One should, rather, point out to the instructor (if any) that they are wrong and use the correct ones for solving problems.

-Dorman


It depends on what you are trying to do. I agree they are strictly wrong, however they do give the numerically right answer in eV. The proper SI equations are dimensionally correct but do not give the answer in eV. I suppose I should have pointed out that the correction factor for joules to eV is just 1.6 x 10-19 as opposed to "e" which is 1.6 x 10-19 coulombs and on that basis you are correct, I apologise for any lack of clarity on my part.

All of this confusion arises from the introduction of various unit systems which have nothing to do with the original question. It was obvious that the question was based on cgs and I answered that correctly the first time. Now it's perfectly reasonable to add the SI formula and explain that this gives an answer in joules which needs conversion. Everything else just confuses the issue.
 
That is my criticism. His calculation is misdirection, a sleight of hand. It looks impressive if you don't bother to actually check it - if you do, it doesn't make sense.
If you are incapable of converting from one set of units to another, I can see how you might think that's true. Of course, being incapable of converting from one set of units to another isn't exactly a great recommendation for someone who claims to know anything about physics, but never mind- I'm sure you'll find something you're good at. Perhaps underwater basket weaving.

I'll point out that you go on to actually have the gall to admit that, in fact, the equations you are using are incorrect. As if that's not what I was saying the whole time.
 
If you are incapable of converting from one set of units to another, I can see how you might think that's true. Of course, being incapable of converting from one set of units to another isn't exactly a great recommendation for someone who claims to know anything about physics, but never mind- I'm sure you'll find something you're good at. Perhaps underwater basket weaving.


Well then, if it's all so obvious I'm sure you won't mind educating all of us by showing exactly how one is supposed to use the value of h in eV seconds in the equation you gave. Let's see you justify the units conversion necessary to make it work. Go on let's see it. I won't hold my breath though... :rolleyes:

I'll point out that you go on to actually have the gall to admit that, in fact, the equations you are using are incorrect. As if that's not what I was saying the whole time.


I have not admitted that the equations (plural) I'm using are incorrect because they're not. I admit that one equation I gave is algebraically incorrect (but is nonetheless numerically correct for the purposes of practical calculation). There is no shame in admitting when one is wrong - the shame arises when someone tries to BS their way through thread after thread and after (for example) having been proven wrong continues simply to throw insults at anyone who doesn't agree with him.

And regardless of whether I am wrong in one thing or not, that doesn't automatically imply that you are right.

The cgs equation I gave originally is correct. The SI form with e^3 is algebraically incorrect (and it was wrong of me to say otherwise) but gives the right answer for practical purposes. Your claim that the cgs equation is wrong is itself wrong. Your claim that the SI equation gives an answer in eV is wrong. Your "calculation" using eV seconds for h is meaningless for the equation you quoted without weird scaling factors for all other SI quantities or using a different equation. You're not in a very strong position to criticise others, although it's clear to many by now that intellectual honesty isn't exactly your strong suit...
 
Well then, if it's all so obvious I'm sure you won't mind educating all of us by showing exactly how one is supposed to use the value of h in eV seconds in the equation you gave. Let's see you justify the units conversion necessary to make it work. Go on let's see it. I won't hold my breath though... :rolleyes:
Get ready for this incredibly tough equation, are you all ready now? Here we go:

1eV = 1.602 176 53(14)×10^−19 J

Wow, that's really complex, isn't it? Gee, I had to search all night to find that one! (/sarcasm, for the impaired, one of whom is apparently going to read this.)

Are you for real? I mean, seriously, how can anyone not know that joules to electron-volts is a direct conversion? And why would anyone who doesn't know that claim to know anything about physics? I learned that when I was in grade school (primary school for our former Commonwealth members). Seriously. In like the fifth grade (although I didn't learn it in school). I mean, come ON. I'm not even going to bother to respond to the rest of this, this is approximately like saying you don't know what a virus is and claiming to be a biologist. Or not knowing what a transistor is and claiming to be an electronics engineer.
 
Get ready for this incredibly tough equation, are you all ready now? Here we go:

1eV = 1.602 176 53(14)×10^−19 J

Wow, that's really complex, isn't it? Gee, I had to search all night to find that one! (/sarcasm, for the impaired, one of whom is apparently going to read this.)

Are you for real? I mean, seriously, how can anyone not know that joules to electron-volts is a direct conversion? And why would anyone who doesn't know that claim to know anything about physics? I learned that when I was in grade school (primary school for our former Commonwealth members). Seriously. In like the fifth grade (although I didn't learn it in school). I mean, come ON. I'm not even going to bother to respond to the rest of this, this is approximately like saying you don't know what a virus is and claiming to be a biologist. Or not knowing what a transistor is and claiming to be an electronics engineer.


If you think ducking the actual question asked and setting up a ridiculous straw man does anything for your credibility - think again. If you have any intellectual honesty at all then answer the question that was actually asked, which was, I repeat: HOW DO YOU USE THE VALUE OF H IN EV SECONDS IN THE EQUATION YOU QUOTED WITHOUT USING ARBITRARY SCALING FACTORS FOR OTHER SI QUANTITIES OR USING A TOTALLY DIFFERENT EQUATION?

Let's see whether there will be a substantive answer or more straw men and insults...
 
If you think ducking the actual question asked and setting up a ridiculous straw man does anything for your credibility - think again. If you have any intellectual honesty at all then answer the question that was actually asked, which was, I repeat: HOW DO YOU USE THE VALUE OF H IN EV SECONDS IN THE EQUATION YOU QUOTED WITHOUT USING ARBITRARY SCALING FACTORS FOR OTHER SI QUANTITIES OR USING A TOTALLY DIFFERENT EQUATION?

Let's see whether there will be a substantive answer or more straw men and insults...
The answer to your question is, use consistent units. I would have thought that was pretty obvious, considering as how it's true for all physics equations. The equation I gave is the equation for the permitted orbitals in the Bohr quantized atom; if the cgs system is to be used, then use the appropriate units (no, I'm not going to bother to go look them up, you're free to do so and state everything in franklins, or statcoulombs, or esus, if you care- not to mention, cgs can't make its mind up on which of those are defined how). If you want to use eV-s for h-bar, then you'll need to use eV/c^2 for the mass, and derive the value for the permittivity of the vacuum in an appropriate unit for that "system;" it's probably some cgs thing (sorry, I have little respect for a "system" that can't decide if charge should be in franklins, statcoulombs, or esus, or some arbitrary new flavor of the week). If you choose to use mass in pounds, then you'll need to use h-bar in feet-poundsforce-seconds, for example. You can do the damn thing in furlongs and bushel-fortnights, if you like, it'll still work. As long as you use consistent units.

If you want to craft some special-purpose equation that only works for an outmoded and little-used units system that is not accepted in the house style of most physics journals, be my guest. But don't tell me the equation in all the physics books is wrong if you do.
 
The answer to your question is, use consistent units. I would have thought that was pretty obvious, considering as how it's true for all physics equations.

Fine. So what units? It's your calculation remember? You don't know what units you were using?

The equation I gave is the equation for the permitted orbitals in the Bohr quantized atom;

Yes. In SI units. But your calculation wasn't in SI units was it?

if the cgs system is to be used, then use the appropriate units (no, I'm not going to bother to go look them up, you're free to do so and state everything in franklins, or statcoulombs, or esus, if you care- not to mention, cgs can't make its mind up on which of those are defined how).

I did. And you insisted that it was wrong - without proof. Now you admit you haven't even looked them up.

If you want to use eV-s for h-bar, then you'll need to use eV/c^2 for the mass, and derive the value for the permittivity of the vacuum in an appropriate unit for that "system;" it's probably some cgs thing

And c is measured in what exactly in your system? Probably "some cgs thing"? Bizarre, especially since eV has nothing to do with cgs. And if it was cgs, it wouldn't need any "permittivity". The point is that you don't know.

(sorry, I have little respect for a "system" that can't decide if charge should be in franklins, statcoulombs, or esus, or some arbitrary new flavor of the week). If you choose to use mass in pounds, then you'll need to use h-bar in feet-poundsforce-seconds, for example. You can do the damn thing in furlongs and bushel-fortnights, if you like, it'll still work. As long as you use consistent units.

If you want to craft some special-purpose equation that only works for an outmoded and little-used units system that is not accepted in the house style of most physics journals, be my guest. But don't tell me the equation in all the physics books is wrong if you do.

The fact is that you've proved my point. Your little "calculation" in eV seconds was a complete red herring. It was meaningless fluff designed to make it look like you were doing something clever but when asked to justify it, you can't. All the rest is misdirection, hot air and bluster as usual. QED.

I should challenge the claim about "the house style of most physics journals" which I am sure is just more fluff and bluster, but I can't be bothered. You're not worth the effort.
 
pragmatist, your attitude makes you look very unpleasant.

just my opinion.
 
I tend to use eV most of the time, something about being mostly interested in the energy required to raise an electron a certain voltage.

eV is great in semiconductors, when it makes the units a lot easier to read.


And in other parts of device manufacture:

What potential difference do I want for a 180 keV Boron+ implant?

What energy do I get with a 180 keV Boron++ implant?


180*2 =360eV, the double charge in the boron ion doubling the energy, easy sum, far nicer than having to multiply or divide by 1.6e-19, to get an answer in cgs or mks units...


For power calculations I use Watts (VA) and VAs for the energy dissipated over a time.

kT/q~25.9mV at 300K (that set of constants is fixed in my memory)

But then I am a pragmatist about what units I use.

I know that geophysicists sometimes measure reciprocal speed in µs/foot (arrgh, but it probably makes sense in context).

Jim
 
Minor update: While I failed the first exam, I passed the second recently with a score of 7.5 out of 10. (5.5 required to pass) :)
 
Just to reiterate, Taking dimensional analysis as Schneibester has said, Assuming that you have the result in cgs units, and you want to convert into eV all you do is mutipply by the number of electron volts in a joule.

so you then multiply by qe*V/Joules
=(1.6*10-19 Coulombs *Joules/Coulomb)/Joules

and the conversion comes out as 1.6*10-19 *(JC/JC) eV/Joule

Simple... and Schneibester is correct.


(1V=1 Joule per coulomb)
 
Just to reiterate, Taking dimensional analysis as Schneibester has said, Assuming that you have the result in cgs units, and you want to convert into eV all you do is mutipply by the number of electron volts in a joule.

I guess you mean SI units. The energy unit in the cgs system is the erg (1 erg = 1o-7 J).
 

Back
Top Bottom