I realize the "popularity" of the 9/11 conspiracies, but there are loads of other conspiracies out there that could probably do with even a portion of the treatment 9/11 truthers have gotten as far as disseminating facts.
I agree. Personally, most of the other CTs do not interest me. It was 9/11 truth that drew me here.
Yeah, but how is "you're stupid" or "you're insane" debunking? I understand the frustration, but most of these conspiracy theory talking points are easily outsmarted, and the other ones could do with a little more good faith in pointing out errors to convince more people to at least stop and think about the possibility that all their assumptions aren't written in stone.
"youre stupid" and other attacks are not debunking. On that we can all agree. They (the insults) are the result of repeatedly doing exactly as you have suggested, pointing out there errors in logic, the errors in fact, and doing so hundreds of times to little or no avail, or worse...not a good thing to do...for sure, but a very human thing to do.
Just making sure I don't break protocol, sir.
Good...I wouldn't want to have to send NWO Kitty after you...
I dunno, I usually tend to hear "calling it as they see it" as a catchall excuse used for belligerence. I'm not making any direct accusations, but I am saying I've heard that before and have even been known to use it myself in the past. There's a difference between calling a spade a spade and calling a spade a crazy nutbag.
No doubt it is an "explanation" that is used to deflect criticism of what amounts to insults and what not. Some people leave to cope, others let out the occasional "nutbag" out when dealing with the annoying shovels.
Hey, how about people with brain damage? Can't reason with them, right? Ooh, or how about "you can't ever reason with a <conservative or liberal>." Yeah, this is awesome! You can pretty much write off anybody by using blanket statements!
That is true as well. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I think the lack of reasonableness in the 9/11 truth movement is pervasive enough to use such a label often.
I know what you're
saying, and I am maintaining that I disagree. In fact, I think it is seriously hurting the credibility of this subforum.
Exhibit A-- I'm not even a CT-ist and I found the two posts I criticized there to be so horribly flawed and lacking of intellectual honesty that I could almost see how a misguided rebellious kid would latch on to that as possible affirmation of conspiracy. Then it's just a matter of having older snake oil salesmen deliver to them the conspiracy pitch and
BAM, they're the next member of the 'movement'.
I see where you are coming from. I also feel bad sometimes that I will use the rod instead of the carrot, but I have never had ANY success using the carrot with the truthers...If that means we lose some truthers to the elder snake oil salesmen, but gain a few fence sitters in exchange, I am ok with it, as most of the truthers, as others have rightfully said, are beyond saving from their beliefs on the issue.
I realize that the CT-apologizer in question in my example is a pretty frustrating and determined advocate of all-around conspiricizing, but that doesn't change my opinion at all. Let him dig his own hole. Sometimes the best rhetorical tool is to let an 'opponent' that you are convinces has no basis in fact to dig their own hole.
I have often used this approach. Often with Lyte Trip, I will simply let him go on and on (not like I have much choice) knowing the more he speaks, the more he says, the more fence sitters we win over.
In cases of others who post here who may be conspiracists or on the fence, they might have some pretty decent reasoning and critical thinking skills, at which point the approach can be more socratic and still be constructive.
Critical thinking is something you achieve and then rest on it. If it isn't exercised on a regular basis and worked out often, then it atrophies from lack of use. My impression is: there are a lot of posts that signify to me that a lot of people have used some critical thinking, have felt justified, and then rested on it and are showing signs of atrophy.
Yes I agree. I think I myself from time to time will exhibit such. That is why I always try to educate myself both on the facts, and on the arguments provided by the truth movement. In addition to trying to hone my critical thinking skills, I try to self-reflect.
TAM
