Propaganda - The 9/11 truth variety (commentary)

[T.A.M.]

How many times has a truth movement member come to this site and called us "Neocon Propaganda shills"? How many times have we been accused of pushing their agenda, pushing the OT?

Well what about the truthers? Are they completely honest and forthright? Do they refuse to engage in Propaganda?

Dictionary.com....first definition under the word propaganda:

prop·a·gan·da /ˌprɒpəˈgændə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prop-uh-gan-duh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun

1.information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

sound familiar?

So clearly the entire truth movement is a propaganda movement, in the dictionary sense of the word, they are spreading information, ideas, AND rumors deliberately to harm those in the USG and other organizations they feel have carried out 9/11 or at least ALLOWED it to happen.

So what about a few less obvious examples...how about Alan Miller's site, "Patriots Question 9/11"?

Every time you call on a truther to bring forth their experts to prove 9/11 was an inside job, you'll get this site linked...

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

Now the author of the site is no dumb cookie. He does not state that the people he lists are declaring "9/11 was an inside job". No he merely takes any official, professional, scientist, or engineer he can find that has expressed ANY doubt about any aspect of the official story, and adds them to a list of "Patriots who question 9/11". If this is not propaganda, is it not at the very least INTENTIONALLY misleading, to add an air of legitimacy to the 9/11 truth movement?

I mean come on, I have "questions" concerning 9/11 that have not been completely answered by the commission or NIST, or USG sources, and I think the 9/11 truth movement is off its rocker. Would Mr. Miller add me, as a medical professional who "questions 9/11"? I hope not, for the essence, and 99.9% of the story of 9/11 is answered quite adequately for me. Yet I would meet his inclusion criteria, from looking at others on his list.

an example...

The site lists, as its first MILITARY OFFICIAL to "question 9/11", (ret) US Army General Wesley Clark.

Impressive right...I have the utmost respect for this man, as do most people, so if he is questioning 9/11, then we must all believe the govt was in on it...right???

Well he is added to the list for the following statement he made on "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" in 2006:

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I just want to make it clear, George, I know there's a lot of speculation on 2008 and there's a lot of great people out there who are lining up and testing the waters and setting up exploratory committees. I'm very proud to have had the opportunity to run in 2004; I did learn a lot. And if you look at what qualities are required in a president today, this is a time where Americans are engaged and responding to foreign affairs like never before. The war on terror, the war in Iraq, the port issue, global trade, um, the avian flu…I mean, it's just…we cannot wall off the outside world so I think it's very important that Americans look to people who've got some experience. Having said that, my focus is on 2006 and helping the right Democrats get into office because
I think when you look at this country, right now, we need a 2-party system that works, we need Congress to do its job, we need real investigation of some of the abuses of authority that are apparently going on at the Executive branch, we need <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: Like what?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We need to really get to the bottom of the Abramoff scandal, we should have a special prosecutor appointed for that, we really need a congressional investigation of the whole business of the NSA wiretapping and how far that goes, there's been a lot of squirreling around the edges; we've never completed the investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused the intelligence information it had - the evidence seems pretty clear to me, I've seen that for a long time. I think Americans are best served by a strong 2-party system and that's been out of whack and what I can do in 2006 is try to help the right Democrats get into office and that's what I'm going to do.

The bolded part is the part they are obviously targeting on the "patriots" site.

So reading what he is saying, in context, He thinks there are some things about the 9/11 attacks that need further investigating...ok fair enough. Does he say what? Well he questions if some of the 9/11 intelligence was misused...ok.

Does he specify what exactly, or how? Does he at any point indicate that the USG ALLOWED 9/11 to occur, or MADE 9/11 OCCUR?

NO!

In fact, in the same interview, just before he makes the 9/11 comment, he says this...

...I did learn a lot. And if you look at what qualities are required in a president today, this is a time where Americans are engaged and responding to foreign affairs like never before. The war on terror, the war in Iraq, the port issue, global trade, um, the avian flu…

sounds to me like he is a firm believer in the WAR ON TERROR, does it not? Well if the USG are responsible for the attacks, and creating some sort of false enemy, as the truth movement believes, how can Gen. Clark be supporting their pov, when he clearly believes in a War on Terror that their movement believes to be "False Flag"? Ah, the art of Cherry Picking.

So what we have in the "Patriots" site is a huge Umbrella site for all that is remotely "not Official Story"...I can't even call it a truther site, as a large portion of the people on the list are not LIHOP or MIHOP, they are simply stating there are some questions unanswered. Yet, others listed on this site are quite frank about their LIHOP OR MIHOP stance...

So I guess what I am saying is that, like we should ALWAYS DO, when pointed to a site like this as proof that many academics and professionals believe the govt was "in on 9/11", take the time to go there, and read BETWEEN THE PROPAGANDA LINES.

Comments?

TAM

 

[MarkyX]

That's the thing I've always pointed out whenever I see an idiot link to this site. I simply point out that many of these people on that list have contradicting theories. For examples, the military people on the site believe Al-Qaeda did it, but they mix it with people who think Planes were holograms and the Pentagon was hit by a missile such as Reynolds or Judy Wood. The fact they use people who died on 9/11 as people on their site is sick.

Propaganda? Yep. I knew that's what the movement was all about when I looked at Prison Planet. Looking at the content on that site and many other "alternative" websites that deal with topics like Islamic extremism or White Supremacy, the traits are very identical.

 

[Childlike Empress]

So what we have in the "Patriots" site is a huge Umbrella site for all that is remotely "not Official Story"...I can't even call it a truther site, as a large portion of the people on the list are not LIHOP or MIHOP, they are simply stating there are some questions unanswered. Yet, others listed on this site are quite frank about their LIHOP OR MIHOP stance...

So I guess what I am saying is that, like we should ALWAYS DO, when pointed to a site like this as proof that many academics and professionals believe the govt was "in on 9/11", take the time to go there, and read BETWEEN THE PROPAGANDA LINES.

Comments?

TAM

There is not the slightest reason to give the Bush administration the benefit of the doubt. They are lying professionally and are opposed to everything we value, TAM, as we have established in the recent torture thread on the Politics subforum. All those people have doubts about the official account of 9/11 and you should join them. Labels like LIHOP and MIHOP are devisive. You can't take the easy way out by condemning unexperienced kids at the Loose Change board because they fall for Rovian counter-intelligence techniques.

A million snake oil sellers are irrelevant. This subforum as a collective is guilty of branding all those people mentioned on that site as "kooks" and "conspiracy theorists", not the other way around. Debunking frauds is great, but stop being cowards and join our efforts to bring these criminals down.

You are needed.

 

[gumboot]

There is not the slightest reason to give the Bush administration the benefit of the doubt. They are lying professionally and are opposed to everything we value, TAM, as we have established in the recent torture thread on the Politics subforum. All those people have doubts about the official account of 9/11 and you should join them. Labels like LIHOP and MIHOP are devisive. You can't take the easy way out by condemning unexperienced kids at the Loose Change board because they fall for Rovian counter-intelligence techniques.

A million snake oil sellers are irrelevant. This subforum as a collective is guilty of branding all those people mentioned on that site as "kooks" and "conspiracy theorists", not the other way around. Debunking frauds is great, but stop being cowards and join our efforts to bring these criminals down.

You are needed.

LOL

-Gumboot

 

[AZCat]

...They are lying professionally...

Not really. I saw better liars in grade school.


Except for Ari. He was smooooooth.

 

[T.A.M.]

There is not the slightest reason to give the Bush administration the benefit of the doubt. They are lying professionally and are opposed to everything we value, TAM, as we have established in the recent torture thread on the Politics subforum. All those people have doubts about the official account of 9/11 and you should join them. Labels like LIHOP and MIHOP are devisive. You can't take the easy way out by condemning unexperienced kids at the Loose Change board because they fall for Rovian counter-intelligence techniques.

A million snake oil sellers are irrelevant. This subforum as a collective is guilty of branding all those people mentioned on that site as "kooks" and "conspiracy theorists", not the other way around. Debunking frauds is great, but stop being cowards and join our efforts to bring these criminals down.

You are needed.

I tell you what. You convince all of the snake oil salesmen in the truth movement to stop promoting their speculations, accusations, and lies, and simply "ask their questions", and I will join you in a request, perhaps demand, that those questions that have not been answered, be answered.

TAM

 

[Childlike Empress]

I tell you what. You convince all of the snake oil salesmen in the truth movement to stop promoting their speculations, accusations, and lies, and simply "ask their questions", and I will join you in a request, perhaps demand, that those questions that have not been answered, be answered.

TAM

What an evasive crap. Why are your actions dependent on what snake oil sellers do?

Why is the forum search full of Loose Change, Alex Jones, Rob Balsamo, Eric Hufschmid, James Fetzer, Richard Gage etc. pp. and has problems to find something on Ray McGovern, the Jersey Girls, Sibel Edmonds, Daniel Hopsicker, Dave Emory, Nafeez Ahmeed, Peter Dale Scott, Paul Thompson, Sander Hicks or Bob Bowman that is not forced into discussion by me or some other "dissidents"?

I tell you why. You are a bunch of frightened cowards. Shame on you.

 

[T.A.M.]

keep it civil CLE...no need to get yourself suspended for name calling.

TAM

 

[Childlike Empress]

Why are your actions dependent on what snake oil sellers do, TAM?

 

[T.A.M.]

What an evasive crap. Why are your actions dependent on what snake oil sellers do?

Why is the forum search full of Loose Change, Alex Jones, Rob Balsamo, Eric Hufschmid, James Fetzer, Richard Gage etc. pp. and has problems to find something on Ray McGovern, the Jersey Girls, Sibel Edmonds, Daniel Hopsicker, Dave Emory, Nafeez Ahmeed, Peter Dale Scott, Paul Thompson, Sander Hicks or Bob Bowman that is not forced into discussion by me or some other "dissidents"?

I tell you why. You are a bunch of frightened cowards. Shame on you.

1. You are asking someone (me) who is not a political activist to suddenly become one. I have the right to decline, or counter offer.

2. My point was that you want me to help raise the questions to the current admin etc...concerning 9/11, so I am asking you to denounce the obvious snake oil sellers, and to help us expose them...what us wrong with that?

3. Do not mistake me for LIHOP (I know you hate labels), I have been shown no evidence that makes me think for one moment that the USG Intentionally allowed 9/11 to occur.

4. The reason you find alot more "hits" on the people you have suggested is because (A) They are much more loud in their claims and rants, (B) They are more insane in terms of the claims they make, (C) many of them are acclaimed, by the truth movement, to be the leaders of their cause. There are quite a few mentions of almost all the others you have mentioned.
Don't forget, this is the CT subforum, not the Politics subforum.

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

Why are your actions dependent on what snake oil sellers do, TAM?

It is not dependent on what they do, it is dependent on you, personally, approaching them to stop their selling of the oil...you asked me to join your cause, so I am asking you to join ours...fair is fair.

TAM

 

[Childlike Empress]

4. The reason you find alot more "hits" on the people you have suggested is because (A) They are much more loud in their claims and rants, (B) They are more insane in terms of the claims they make, (C) many of them are acclaimed, by the truth movement, to be the leaders of their cause. There are quite a few mentions of almost all the others you have mentioned.
Don't forget, this is the CT subforum, not the Politics subforum.

TAM

This is essentially an admission that this subforum lives of the actions of the weirder parts of the "truth movement". I don't find that funny at all, watching a bunch of intelligent and allegedly rational people merely reacting to the actions of a bunch of snake oil sellers.

You actually have to pay attention to keep up with the situation. The question if i spend time in the futile attempt to stop the obvious kooks in the debate on 9/11 can certainly have no serious effect on your actions, if your honest, TAM.

edit: 1.-3.) Maybe you could make your self familiar with the work of the people i've mentioned. There are others but you would have to do your own research to find them. Daniele Ganser for example.

 

[T.A.M.]

It comes down to this...

I am tired of the whines of the "we have questions about 9/11" crowd, like Thompson, like some of the others you mention, when they continue linking/associating themselves with the MIHOPers, and even the LIHOPers, because it gives them a bigger, accepting audience. Because it gives them larger numbers. You wanna roll with them, your gonna get muddy. You want any kind of support from someone like me, the FIRST STEP is to denounce the snake oil salesmen.

I have questions about 9/11. Do the answers to any of my questions change "who dunnit" re 9/11...nope. Do the answers implicate the USG as part of a LIHOP/MIHOP scenario...nope.

My questions might bring out some more USG "dirty laundry" with regards to who funded who, what should have been focused on but wasn't, what systems broke down, and who within was to blame.

The answers to my questions are not gonna "change the world", hell the answers to my questions won't even change how most feel about the current admin...They are already despised, and looked at as known liars by most of their own people.

So what do you think? You think you can convince Alan Miller and his collection of Patriots to dissociate themselves from the LIHOPer/MIHOPer element of the truth movement?

TAM

 

[Pardalis]

The whole point of this forum is to combat pseudo science.

If you don't like it...

 

[T.A.M.]

This is essentially an admission that this subforum lives of the actions of the weirder parts of the "truth movement". I don't find that funny at all, watching a bunch of intelligent and allegedly rational people merely reacting to the actions of a bunch of snake oil sellers.

You actually have to pay attention to keep up with the situation. The question if i spend time in the futile attempt to stop the obvious kooks in the debate on 9/11 can certainly have no serious effect on your actions, if your honest, TAM.

edit: 1.-3.) Maybe you could make your self familiar with the work of the people i've mentioned. There are others but you would have to do your own research to find them. Daniele Ganser for example.

Who said it was funny? This is a forum, a community, and all sorts of posts and threads are created here. Like any group of people, they tend to respond more frequently, and louder, to the "squeaky" and in this case "more insane" wheels. This is natural, regardless of intelligence.

Most of the time when you post on this forum, you do so in the form of a political or social statement. I rarely see you discussing or debating elements of the 9/11 attacks. Do I criticize you for this? it is a forum. We have some one time posters, some hit and run posters, some soap box posters, and many other flavors...

You are right, i should read more on some of the people you have mentioned. Some of them I have read material authored/collected by them. None of what I have read has changed my view on the 9/11 attacks with respect to who done it, why, and how.


TAM

Edit: Its later where I live...so good night...and good luck.

 

[Gravy]

Why is the forum search full of Loose Change, Alex Jones, Rob Balsamo, Eric Hufschmid, James Fetzer, Richard Gage etc. pp. and has problems to find something on Ray McGovern, the Jersey Girls, Sibel Edmonds, Daniel Hopsicker, Dave Emory, Nafeez Ahmeed, Peter Dale Scott, Paul Thompson, Sander Hicks or Bob Bowman that is not forced into discussion by me or some other "dissidents"?

Because of recent medical findings that excessive giggling and knee-slapping is actually unhealthy.

 

[332nd]

What an evasive crap. Why are your actions dependent on what snake oil sellers do?

Why is the forum search full of Loose Change, Alex Jones, Rob Balsamo, Eric Hufschmid, James Fetzer, Richard Gage etc. pp. and has problems to find something on Ray McGovern, the Jersey Girls, Sibel Edmonds, Daniel Hopsicker, Dave Emory, Nafeez Ahmeed, Peter Dale Scott, Paul Thompson, Sander Hicks or Bob Bowman that is not forced into discussion by me or some other "dissidents"?

I tell you why. You are a bunch of frightened cowards. Shame on you.

Why have there been no truther rallies/marches/protests over 500 people? I'll tell you why because you are a bunch of lazy, cowards who do the vast majority of your "truth searching" on your computers.

I'll tell you what, I'll tell you how to get many more people to take you seriously. Get twenty truthers, ten at ground zero, ten in front of the White House, and they stay there 24/7/365 demanding that the movement's questions be answered. Yes I mean they quit their jobs. Yes I mean they stay there no matter the weather. Yes I mean they leave home and hearth.

Now the job of the rest of you will be to provide money for their food, tents, sleeping bags, 9/11 truth pamphlets, etc... Heck Charlie and Rosie alone should be able to swing that, but let's be fair and split the burden.

Yes they may be arrested or even imprisoned. Should that happen either, A. They return the minute they are released.
B. They are replaced by other members of the truth movement.

The truth movement does this and I guarantee at least a sit down with some high ups. Now I know this won't happen because all of you "brave truthers who stand up and question the government every day" will find a myriad of excuses not to but... there you go.

 

[Childlike Empress]

You want any kind of support from someone like me, the FIRST STEP is to denounce the snake oil salesmen.

In my first post on this forum i've forwarded the information that the GCN Radio Network is quite certainly financed by Adnan Khashoggi. Since then i've voiced my negative opinion on several loud-mouthed people in "the movement". You are adressing the wrong person here and i am not alone.

Reading your last post right now: We are living in dangerous times, there is no time for sitting on one's back and mocking other people on the net. I'm happy if you re-investigate some stuff and wish you a good night, too. I'm off to work in 30 minutes.

edit @Redtail: Please take your meds and don't bother me. You confuse me with somebody else.

@Gravy: Think about what i've written.

 

[ktesibios]

Was the Wesley Clark quote you cited reproduced in its entirety on the patriotsquestion911 site, or did you have to go dig up the original source of a cherry-picked fragment?

 

[332nd]

In my first post on this forum i've forwarded the information that the GCN Radio Network is quite certainly financed by Adnan Khashoggi. Since then i've voiced my negative opinion on several loud-mouthed people in "the movement". You are adressing the wrong person here and i am not alone.

Reading your last post right now: We are living in dangerous times, there is no time for sitting on one's back and mocking other people on the net. I'm happy if you re-investigate some stuff and wish you a good night, too. I'm off to work in 30 minutes.

edit @Redtail: Please take your meds and don't bother me. You confuse me with somebody else.

@Gravy: Think about what i've written.

So you're only willing to protest when it is convenient to you? Ok. Have you ever heard of the Silent Sentinels? Maybe you should google them.