Progress in the mideast?

[davefoc]

Charles Krauthammer had an optimistic column on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/01/AR2005120101172.html

It sounds good to me. I guess people with my view of the situation are not going to be happy that Israel's fences ended up in land that most would judge as Palestinian and we're not happy that Israel continues to fund what we see as illegal occupations and we're not happy that the US continues to dump massive amounts of resources into Israel most of which are in the form of military aid that may have to do more with with congressional lobbying and bribing by arms manufacturers than any needs of Israel.

But really most of that is in the nits. Maybe there is some real reason for optimism that some kind of peaceful resolution is possible and that sounds good to me.

 

[Skeptic]

we're not happy that the US continues to dump massive amounts of resources into Israel most of which are in the form of military aid

You don't seem to be too unhappy, however, about the reason for this--namely, the ongoing, 100-year-long (to date) Arab Jihad against israel and/or the jewish community in Palestine (take your pick on how you call the place--that's not the point.)

I suspect that's something more serious to be unhappy about than the fact that the designated I]Jihad[/I] victim keeps annoying you with demands for weapons to fight back.

 

[zenith-nadir]

and we're not happy that the US continues to dump massive amounts of resources into Israel most of which are in the form of military aid that may have to do more with with congressional lobbying and bribing by arms manufacturers than any needs of Israel.

My rebuttal to your statemnt Dave is the:

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement Hamas

Article Seven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Article Fifteen:

The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.

Key words "jews" & "jihad".

Ghazi Hamad, a Hamas leader and a candidate, waves after signing up for a Palestinian legislative election at Rafah refugee camp, southern Gaza Strip December 3, 2005. (Mohammed Salem/Reuters)

 

[Kerberos]

we're not happy that the US continues to dump massive amounts of resources into Israel most of which are in the form of military aid

You don't seem to be too unhappy, however, about the reason for this--namely, the ongoing, 100-year-long (to date) Arab Jihad against israel and/or the jewish community in Palestine (take your pick on how you call the place--that's not the point.)

Wasn't Israel/the jewish community in Palestine (presuming you mean the words interchangebly, which you seem to) formed in 1947? waging a 100 year jihad against something less than 60 years old, is a pretty damned impresive feat.

 

[Mycroft]

Wasn't Israel/the jewish community in Palestine (presuming you mean the words interchangebly, which you seem to) formed in 1947? waging a 100 year jihad against something less than 60 years old, is a pretty damned impresive feat.

The modern Zionist movement began aroun 1881, so there has been plenty of time for a century of hostility against them.

 

[David Swidler]

Let's not forget the documented continuous presence of Jews in the land all the way back to at least the tenth century BCE.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Let's not forget the documented continuous presence of Jews in the land all the way back to at least the tenth century BCE.

Not true.

PLO Charter Also known as "the Palestinian National Charter" or "the Palestinian Convenant".

Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

 

[Hutch]

Just so everyone can know the numbers we are talking about when davefoc says "dump massive amounts of resources" , the link is here:http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/aid/aidindex.htm

Admittedly the Federation of American Scientists (FAS) is hardly non-partisan, but the information in the links is from US Government reports (don't ask, but I know)

Foreign Military Financing (which is used by Israel to buy US weapon products-it is a 'grant' if you will, not a replayable loan)

NOTE--US Fiscal years are 1 October-30 September

FY 2002 $2.1 Billion
FY 2003 $2.1 Billion
FY 2004 $2.1 Billion
FY 2005 $2.2 Billion
FY 2006 $2.28 Billion (proposed)

Economic Support Funds--Managed by Department of State, this is what most people think about when they complain of US 'Foreign Aid"

FY 2002 $720 Million
FY 2003 $800 Million
FY 2004 $477 Million
FY 2005 $357 Million
FY 2006 $240 Million (proposed)

There may be other types of support too, these I can speak of with some reliability.

Press on.

 

[webfusion]

dollars that make good sense

Hutch, could you lay your hands on the amounts that Egypt and Jordan and Saudi Arabia and Iraq received in those same years? Those countries were (and some are) declared enemies of Israel, having participated in either fighting directly or financing war against Israel.

One thing that stands out in my mind, was in 1973, when then-President Nixon REFUSED to provide Israel with military re-supply during the Yom Kippur War (in fact, he even refused to allow shipment of hardware that had already been paid for, and denied an airlift to the Israelis during the height of the war, when they were apparently losing and needed it most). Only when it became clear that the Arabs were lying about their gains, and the Israelis had in fact successfully defended themselves at the breaches of their lines, both in Sinai and Golan, did Kissinger convince Nixon to go ahead and release the arms.

All a matter of public record.

And the money going today into the Arrow missile defense (DEFENCE) program? Is that a waste of US taxpayer money? Not if you count the benefits to the US arsenal by having the Israelis provide the know-how, the experience with incoming ballistic misslies, and the high-tech brainpower and development efforts, combined to produce a system that the USA will eventually deploy!
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/653023.html

( I loved the opening line of the article -- "All Russian weaponry supplied to Iran is purely for defensive purpose," the Russian Foreign Ministry said Saturday, responding to news reports that Moscow was selling more than $1 billion worth of missiles and other defense systems to Tehran.)
That's $1-BILLION to a nation that has openly declared its vision of a world without Israel on the map.

Yep. Davefoc sure has this entire issue figured-out. Glad he posted.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I am always puzzled by the objection to aid to Israel. I really am.

CRS Report for Congress - January 19, 2005

In 2005, the United States is providing some form of foreign assistance to about 150 countries. Israel and Egypt continue, as they have since the late 1970s, as the largest recipients, although Iraq, receiving over $20 billion for reconstruction activities since mid-2003, was the biggest recipient in FY2004.

Military Assistance.

The United States provides military assistance to U.S. friends and allies to help them acquire U.S. military equipment and training. Congress appropriated $5 billion for military assistance in FY2005, 23.6% of total U.S. foreign aid. There are three main programs. Foreign Military Financing(FMF), $4.75 billion in FY2005, is a grant program that enables governments to receive equipment from the U.S. government or to access equipment directly through U.S. commercial channels. Like ESF, most FMF grants support the security needs of Israel and Egypt.

How Does Foreign Aid Spending Compare with Other Federal Programs?

Foreign aid spending is a relatively small component of the U.S. federal budget. As part of the total amount spent in FY2004 on all discretionary programs (those controlled by Congress through appropriations), entitlements, and other mandatory activities, foreign aid outlays represent an estimated 0.9%, excluding expenditures for Iraq reconstruction. This figure is in line with typical foreign aid outlay amounts, which have generally equaled slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending.

How Much of Foreign Aid Dollars Are Spent on U.S. Goods?

In FY2004, roughly 87% or $3.7 billion of military aid financing was used for procurement of U.S. military equipment and training. The remaining 13% were funds allocated to Israel for procurement within that country.

(emphasis mine)

So 87% or $3.7 billion of military aid financing was used for procurement of U.S. military equipment and training. This represents slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending per the CRS Report for Congress - January 19, 2005.

That is why these types of statements puzzle me:

and we're not happy that the US continues to dump massive amounts of resources into Israel most of which are in the form of military aid that may have to do more with with congressional lobbying and bribing by arms manufacturers than any needs of Israel.

 

[Hutch]

Hutch, could you lay your hands on the amounts that Egypt and Jordan and Saudi Arabia and Iraq received in those same years? Those countries were (and some are) declared enemies of Israel, having participated in either fighting directly or financing war against Israel.

Gladly. Although with my link you could have found it yourself with no trouble.

Saudi Arabia gets $25,000/year towards US military training--nothing else.

Iraq--Obviously nothing 2002-2003, about $18.4 Billion n non-military supplement support in 2004, and ESF funds for FY 2006 are budgeted at $360 Million

Jordan--FMF--FY 02--$75 M, FY 03--$198 M, FY 04--$204 M, FY 05-$206 M, FY 06-$206 M (proposed) For ESF, FY 02-$150 M, FY 03-$250 M, $FY 04-$348 M, FY 05-$248 M, FY 06-$250 M (proposed)

Egypt--FMF--About $1.3 Billion a year, based on a percentage of what Israel recieves. This is, IIRC coreectly, part of the Camp David agreements.

ESF--FY 02-$655 M, FY 03-$615M, FY 04-$571 M, FY 05-$530 M, FY 06 $495 M (proposed)

I would note that neither Egypt or Jordan are now declared enemies of Israel, that Israel has a Embassy in Cairo (been past it) and that part of the reason the US Government is supporting the military in those countries is to ensure that we have a "whip hand" on what is released (in terms of technology) and ultimate control of the spares/support/upgrades to the various weapon systems.

IMHO neither Egypt or Jordan have any great desire to re-engage with Israel--I will grant you the success of the Muslim Brotherhood in the recent Egyptian elections is something to be watched carefully, but most of that is reaction to financial stresses, not anti-Isreal activity.

Again, IMHO.

 

[webfusion]

Thank you, Hutch. I'm often guilty of not clicking on links, and actually reading the information contained therin. Laziness, especially on a Sunday morning.

Saudi Arabia gets $25,000/year towards US military training--nothing else.

25-thousand dollars? Huh? Now I'll have to actually go to your link and check that for myself -- darn you, Hutch, making me do my own research!

And, of course, you are correct that Jordan and Egypt do not currently present a threat to Israel, and Iraq is undergoing democratic changes that might auger well for relations with Israel, although all that could easily change overnight with an assassin's bullet (I believe Mubarak has escaped several such attempts).

Back to the OP --- "Maybe there is some real reason for optimism that some kind of peaceful resolution is possible and that sounds good to me."

A Fairy Tale Ending? Yeah, sure...

 

[zenith-nadir]

Saudi Arabia gets $25,000/year towards US military training--nothing else.

Not any more.

Link 1 & Link 2

2004-07-16 16:09

U.S. lawmakers cheered as the House of Representatives voted on Thursday to strip financial assistance for Saudi Arabia from a foreign aid bill because of criticism that the country has not been sufficiently cooperative in the U.S. war on terror.

The House voted 217-191 to remove $25,000 in the $19.4 billion 2005 foreign aid bill earmarked for Saudi Arabia.

FYI 19.4 billion foreign aid bill, (which represents slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending per the CRS Report for Congress - January 19 2005), Israel gets a 4 billion piece of that pie.

 

[Hutch]

Not any more.

FYI 19.4 billion foreign aid bill, Israel gets 4 billion of that.

Or in other words, Isreal (population about 6.2 Million) gets 20% of United States foreign aid, while the rest of the world (population about 6 Billion) gets the rest...

 

[zenith-nadir]

Or in other words, Isreal (population about 6.2 Million) gets 20% of United States foreign aid,

Let's say there was tsunami in Bali, would the US put a cap on foreign aid to Bali cuz there is only 3,000,000 people there? Certainly not. So why should Israel's population even be an issue?

while the rest of the world (population about 6 Billion) gets the rest...

Well let's revisit the numbers. I am quoting from the CRS Report for Congress I linked above.

Foreign aid spending is a relatively small component of the U.S. federal budget. As part of the total amount spent in FY2004 on all discretionary programs (those controlled by Congress through appropriations), entitlements, and other mandatory activities, foreign aid outlays represent an estimated 0.9%, excluding expenditures for Iraq reconstruction. This figure is in line with typical foreign aid outlay amounts, which have generally equaled slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending.

Foreign aid spending generally equaled slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending. So to put it in perspective we are talking about slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending. Now shall I quote from the two news stories I linked above.

$19.4 billion 2005 foreign aid bill

So we are talking about a "$19.4 billion 2005 foreign aid bill" which represents "slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending" of which Israel receives 4.7 billion a year per Washington Report, April 2005.

So to put it all together....There is a $19.4 billion 2005 foreign aid bill which represents slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending of which Israel receives 4.7 billion a year. Those are the best numbers I can provide, anyone else is welcome to correct me.


Here's a funny comparison that for some reason came to me.

Washington Post

The problem, according to the bill's sponsor, Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark.) is that the Internet porn industry brings in $12 billion in annual revenues...

People spend $12 billion on internet porn annually...man am I in the wrong biz.

Israel gets 4 billion from the $19.4 billion foreign aid bill which represents slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending. Now that it is in perspective I am alway puzzled why people bitch and moan about aid to Israel being so...
massive!
...considering people blow, (pun intended), 12 billion on internet porn a year... ....and the foreign aid bill represents slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending.

 

[Hutch]

We appear to be having two different conversations here, ZN...

I concur with you that overall Foreign aid by the US is a drop in the proverbial bucket of the US Budget and GNP. Most Americans (IIRC) when queried provide a much higher percentage.

My point was of that inadequate bucket, Isreal unarguably gets a share that is way out of proportion to it's population. That has been justifiable to Congress for many years now; it can be strongly argued that it is money that has been well-spent (I'll let other discuss that if they wish). But that it is a lot of money to a very small country vis-a-vis the rest of the world is self-evident, which is all that I was demonstrating.

Press on.

 

[zenith-nadir]

My point was of that inadequate bucket, Isreal unarguably gets a share that is way out of proportion to it's population.

Let's say you go to the bank and ask for a loan. Will the bank base the loan amount by how many "Hutches" there are? Nope. I am equally puzzled by this "population" issue. Really.

Are you saying America's aid to Israel should based upon some calculated "value" of each Israeli citizen?

 

[Hutch]

Sigh...you seem determined to have an argument, ZN, and I am not trying to have one.

I said in my previous post:

...That has been justifiable to Congress for many years now; it can be strongly argued that it is money that has been well-spent (I'll let other discuss that if they wish)...

So yes, very likely Israel has had good cause for that money and the United States feels it has recieved benefits in that support. No argument.

I am just making the point that in the Global perspective, we are spending 20% of our Foreign Aid budget on a small country of 6 Million while the other 120+ countries and 6 Billion people get the other 80%. I am merely stating a statistical fact (from information you provided).

Make of it what you will. You strongly argue that the 20% is wise and justified; other may argue otherwise; I simply put the number out there.

Need to read my Sunday paper before the Football games. Carry on.

 

[webfusion]

"But that it is a lot of money to a very small country vis-a-vis the rest of the world is self-evident"

Absolutely, and it's unfair! I think Israel should be concentrating more on expanding to take over the entire MidEast, as part of the Zionist ideology for a Greater Jewish State extending eastwards to the Euprhates. With all the US aid money it gets for arms, this should be a relatively easy goal to attain.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1874.cfm

Carry on.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Sigh...you seem determined to have an argument, ZN, and I am not trying to have one.

We are not arguing. We are debating!

Let's step back for a sec and go outside the box as they say. Both of us.

There is a $19.4 billion 2005 foreign aid bill which represents slightly less than 1% of total U.S. spending. So 99% of U.S. spending is spend on other things than foreign aid. But the microscope is firmly planted on that 1%, ($19.4 billion), of which Israel receives approximately 4 billion.

So the objection to Israel receiving 4 billion a year heard far and wide, (just type "US aid to Israel" into Google everyone and you'll see what I mean), is a wopping 0.2% of annual US spending. 0.2%!!!

OK...everyone back into the box.

I said in my previous post: I am just making the point that in the Global perspective, we are spending 20% of our Foreign Aid budget on a small country of 6 Million while the other 120+ countries and 6 Billion people get the other 80%. I am merely stating a statistical fact (from information you provided).

Make of it what you will.

No one has a gun to the US governments' head dictating how much aid to give out and to whom. This whole "global this" and "20% that" represents only 0.2% of annual US spending. The US can give foreign aid to whomever it wants and in what amout it wants. America chooses to give 0.2% of it's annual spending to Israel. Big frikkin' deal. In the big picture 0.2% is not:

...massive amounts of resources ...

...it's 0.2%. It's only massive until one spins 0.2% it into "massive amounts of resources". That's all.