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Probability question

patnray said:
But I still maintain that the original problem does not contain enough information. Her children could be identical twins or adopted. Or she could have meant that exactly one of her children is a boy...
I agree with your explanation, but I missed something in the above sentence. What would adoption have to do with anything?



---
Edited to add: Ha, ne'er mind. If they were adopted, then the parents may have chosen them based on their gender. So no longer random.

But you don't know what the parents' preference was; so does that make the probability of them picking a boy 1/3?
{head explodes}
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Probability question

Originally posted by Just thinking
Remember, my problem starts with "A woman is in a store with her son ... " It does not start by saying "What is the chance a woman with 2 children is in a store with her son ..."
No, but you need to know that chance, in order to answer the question you did ask.
In this way I am forcing her to bring (and show) her son, if she has one.
If you randomly pick a woman out of the phone book, and you call her up and say, "if you have exactly two children, not both girls, please come to the store and bring a son with you," you are forcing her to bring a son if she has any, and then if she does come to the store, the probability is 1/3 that she has two sons. But if you just happen to meet a woman with her son, there was no forcing involved---nothing prevented her from bringing a daughter if she has one---therefore, noticing that she didn't bring a daughter provides some evidence that she doesn't have one to bring, thereby increasing the probability of two sons from 1/3 to 1/2.
 
What if the boy you were shown was an infant, implying he had to be the younger bugger?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Probability question

Just thinking said:
Let's say that there are exactly 4 women. Woman 1 (W1) has 2 children, BB. W2 has GB (older girl). W3 has BG (older boy) and W4 has GG. You see one of them in the store with a male child -- right off you know it's not W4. I hope we can agree on that. Now, what is the chance that she's W1? Since it was established that she has a male child with her we see that she can be either W1, W2 or W3. Each is equally likely because the initial condition was predetermined -- a woman with one male child with her. Therefore the probability is 1 out of 3.
No, it's 1/2. In your example, it breaks down like this. Forget which is older or younger, you're now working with a different "aspect of specificity" if that makes sense - the child you see and the one you don't. Out of the four possibilities BB, BG, GB, GG, you have ruled out the last two because the one you saw is a boy, meaning it's one of the first two possibilities, and the other kid as a 50-50 chance of being a girl.

The difference with the census worker example is that the mom is not necessarily referring to a specific one of her kids when she says "yes" to the boy question. And that lack of being specific makes all the difference.

Originally posted by patnray
Case 3: I flip two coins without looking at the result. You look at one of them (I don't know which) and tell me that it is heads. What is the probability that the other is heads? 1/3, because 2 tails is no longer possible.
To figure these odds, we need to be careful exactly what we're stating has happened. In your example, if I have looked only at one coin, and tell you that it's heads, the odds that the other coin is heads is 50-50. On the other hand, if I examine both coins and tell you that at least one is heads, the probability that the other one is a head also is 1/3.
 
yersinia29 said:
I have 2 children
Okay, noted.
one is a boy.
Okay. Since this child is the first that is mentioned, I'll call him Child 1.
what is the prob that the other is also a boy?
Let's call the other child 'child 2' and use a little computer simulation to figure it out:
Code:
DIM Child(1 TO 2)
Boy = 1
Girl = 0

Child(1) = Boy: ' child 1 is known to be a boy

FOR n = 1 TO 10000

Child(2) = INT(RND * 2) ' Child 2 is randomly a boy or girl

IF Child(2) = 1 THEN ' If other child is also a boy
        Total.Times.Child2.Is.Also.A.Boy = Total.Times.Child2.Is.Also.A.Boy + 1
END IF

PRINT Total.Times.Child2.Is.Also.A.Boy / n

NEXT
Answer: 1/2.

I have no idea how to perform Drooper's experiment as his description is way too vague.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Probability question

CurtC said:
No, it's 1/2. In your example, it breaks down like this. Forget which is older or younger, you're now working with a different "aspect of specificity" if that makes sense - the child you see and the one you don't. Out of the four possibilities BB, BG, GB, GG, you have ruled out the last two because the one you saw is a boy, meaning it's one of the first two possibilities, and the other kid as a 50-50 chance of being a girl.

Last attempt. The other kid has a 50/50 chance of being a girl. YES. TRUE. But the first one is part of the answer. he is the from...

G
B -does not matter, either way\
the outcome is n/a they become immaterial (same outcome)
B -does not matter, either way/
G

you do not know whom was born first. I know I won't make headway with this one, I thought i would try.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Probability question

CurtC said:
No, it's 1/2. Out of the four possibilities BB, BG, GB, GG, you have ruled out the last two because the one you saw is a boy, meaning it's one of the first two possibilities, and the other kid as a 50-50 chance of being a girl.

In your example, if I have looked only at one coin, and tell you that it's heads, the odds that the other coin is heads is 50-50.

Why (to the first comment) must you rule out GB from just seeing a boy? Why can't the boy be the younger of the 2 children? You only see a boy and know he has a sibling.

To your second comment (about the coins) -- my showing you one to be heads does not in any way help you any better in determining the second coin than telling you one of them is heads. Why? Because you don't know which coin (first one flipped or second one flipped) I showed you.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Probability question

69dodge said:
If you randomly pick a woman out of the phone book, and you call her up and say, "if you have exactly two children, not both girls, please come to the store and bring a son with you," you are forcing her to bring a son if she has any, and then if she does come to the store, the probability is 1/3 that she has two sons.

Good -- because that was my intent. By saying "A woman is in a store with her son ... " I wanted to guarantee that she shows a son and that she has at least one.

Now, can you please help out with this two coin flip I'm debating with CurtC?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Probability question

Just thinking said:
Why (to the first comment) must you rule out GB from just seeing a boy? Why can't the boy be the younger of the 2 children?
The way I read the OP, the age of the children is irrelevant. It doesn't say anything about the age. Why people are constantly dragging age into the discussion is beyond me.

You can number the children though and call the boy you meet 1 and the unknown child 2. (Or X and Y or whatever) If you do that, you know that child 1 is a boy. And there are only 2 possible genders for child 2 (excluding the possibility of hermaphroditism).
 
Just thinking said:
This can actually be done by even showing the observer one of the coins is heads. Strange as it may sound (at first) it's OK. All the observer sees (or knows -- there is no difference here) is that one coin is heads, the other has a 1/3 chance being heads also and 2/3 chance being tales.

You are right.
 
Re: Re: Probability question

Earthborn said:
Okay, noted.Okay. Since this child is the first that is mentioned, I'll call him Child 1.Let's call the other child 'child 2' and use a little computer simulation to figure it out:
Code:
DIM Child(1 TO 2)
Boy = 1
Girl = 0

Child(1) = Boy: ' child 1 is known to be a boy

FOR n = 1 TO 10000

Child(2) = INT(RND * 2) ' Child 2 is randomly a boy or girl

IF Child(2) = 1 THEN ' If other child is also a boy
        Total.Times.Child2.Is.Also.A.Boy = Total.Times.Child2.Is.Also.A.Boy + 1
END IF

PRINT Total.Times.Child2.Is.Also.A.Boy / n

NEXT
Answer: 1/2.

I have no idea how to perform Drooper's experiment as his description is way too vague.
And you call my post vague???:p

You code is impenetrable, but I would guess it gives the wrong answer because you attribute the known gender to a specific child (child 1). That is more information than you are given.

WHat you are told is that child one may be a boy and.or child two may be a boy.

More precisely: either child 1 is a boy, or child 2 is a boy, or child 1 and child 2 are boys.


If you want to code this up I would expect to see a lot more logical statements in you program - especially ones of the nature
IF Child1=Child2 then etc.


Everyone here who can't "get it" seems to be assuming too much information. In a strange sense, you can not know the gender of either child. You only know that one or more is a boy. As a result, asking the question what is the gender of the second child is exactly the same as asking "what is the probability that I have 2 boys"

The trick in the problem is using the word "other" to make you think you know the gender of one of the children (i.e. specifically Child1 or Child2). But you don't. Of the four possibilities at the outset (BB BG GB GG), two are completely indistinguishable from one another (BG GB).


Let me rephrase the question and see what people answer then.

You meet me in the street and I tell you I have two children. What is the probability that I have two boys. You say, correctly, 1/4, because you know there are 4 possibilities (GG GB BG BB).

Then, I tell you, I have a boy. Now what is the probability that I have two boys (this is exactly the same as asking the probability that the "other" child is a boy). Answer? It must by 1/3 because the information I have given you has only ruled out 1 of the four possibilities (i.e. two girls), leaving (GB BG BB).
 
I have only read half-way through the thread, but I think the question is wether "one of them is a boy" gives additional info or not.

Say you toss two coins and cover them with your hands.

a) You show the coin under your left hand. It's heads up. The other coin has a probability of 1/2 of being heads up.

b) You peek under both hands and state: at least one of them is heads up. The probability of the other one (and so, both coins) being heads up is 1/3.

If you give information about "one of them" but don't say which one, the probability is 1/3. If you say which one, the probability is 1/2 because they're independent.

So, when someone says "one of them is a boy", is she saying at least one is a boy? Or is she picking one of them (maybe at random) and stating his gender? I find the former more natural, but language is ambiguous.

If you find a mother in a parents meeting in a boys school, and she says she has two children, you know at least one is a boy (otherwise she wouldn't be there) and the probability of both being boys is 1/3.

But if you find a mother with her son in a store, you're getting some information about one of her children... Is "the one who's in the store with his mother" enough to say *which one*? Surely, "the youngest is a boy" is enough, while "at least one is a boy" isn't. This other case is, I guess, a bit trickier.
 
Jellby said:
I have only read half-way through the thread, but I think the question is wether "one of them is a boy" gives additional info or not.

Say you toss two coins and cover them with your hands.

a) You show the coin under your left hand. It's heads up. The other coin has a probability of 1/2 of being heads up.

b) You peek under both hands and state: at least one of them is heads up. The probability of the other one (and so, both coins) being heads up is 1/3.

If you give information about "one of them" but don't say which one, the probability is 1/3. If you say which one, the probability is 1/2 because they're independent.

What if you peek under both hands and only show one coin -- whichever is heads (given no Tales-Tales flip)? (If both are heads, you still only show one, but it's your choice as to which. And the observer does not know which coin you are showing him -- he never sees the double flip and cover-up.) I argue (and Drooper agrees with me) that this is no more information than example 'b' you gave just above. And you seem to be implying that in your final comment above.

So, when someone says "one of them is a boy", is she saying at least one is a boy? Or is she picking one of them (maybe at random) and stating his gender? I find the former more natural, but language is ambiguous.

If you find a mother in a parents meeting in a boys school, and she says she has two children, you know at least one is a boy (otherwise she wouldn't be there) and the probability of both being boys is 1/3.

But if you find a mother with her son in a store, you're getting some information about one of her children... Is "the one who's in the store with his mother" enough to say *which one*? Surely, "the youngest is a boy" is enough, while "at least one is a boy" isn't. This other case is, I guess, a bit trickier.

And that's my point ... just seeing a mother with a boy (her son) is not enough information to know which one (younger or older) is the boy. Therefore, the probability is 1/3 that she has 2 boys.

Now, 69dodge argues that we must also consider that the chances of meeting the woman with 2 boys are greater than seeing a mother with a boy and girl, given that we see a boy when we see the mother. But my example was a response to the original post, we are to know that the mother has at least one boy. I put the mother-son pair as a given condition, regardless of what the other child may be. Meaning if there's a mother in the store, she has a son with her. I will conceed that I may not have worded it in the best possible way, but that was my intent, and I believe that the 1/3 chance of her having 2 boys holds given this condition.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Probability question

Earthborn said:
The way I read the OP, the age of the children is irrelevant. It doesn't say anything about the age. Why people are constantly dragging age into the discussion is beyond me.

You can number the children though and call the boy you meet 1 and the unknown child 2. (Or X and Y or whatever) If you do that, you know that child 1 is a boy. And there are only 2 possible genders for child 2 (excluding the possibility of hermaphroditism).

The age of a child (meaning younger or older) is relevant in that it establishes the order of events. If you know the younger to be a male, it's 50-50 that the older is a male. If you know the older to be a male, it's also 50-50 that the younger is male. But if you don't know which is male (and at least one is a male), younger or older, then it's only 33-67 that the other is male.

The problem seems to be some of us are assuming that just because one doesn't know the gender of even a specific individual, it's automatically 50-50 as to whether or not it's male. Not true -- we must determine all the possible outcomes for that unknown individual and compare how many result in it being a male against how many result in it being female. Then we calculate the probability based on that.
 
What I don't understand is how this is different from the 'gambler's fallacy', that the previous flip of the coin affects the next one, and so on.
 
Just thinking said:
And that's my point ... just seeing a mother with a boy (her son) is not enough information to know which one (younger or older) is the boy. Therefore, the probability is 1/3 that she has 2 boys.

So, is older/younger the only valid distinction for the two children?

If you see a mother giving birth to a son, and you're told he's her second child... you have again 1/2 for the other child. The only difference with the shop scene is you now know that the boy you saw is the younger child. What if you saw the mother giving birth to one son and later you're told she actually had twins... but you don't know whether you saw the first one or the second one?

Again, is the distinction between the older and the younger child the only valid one in this case? Could some other information be equivalent? Why is it so?
 
ReFLeX said:
What I don't understand is how this is different from the 'gambler's fallacy', that the previous flip of the coin affects the next one, and so on.

There is no difference -- the outcome of one child's sex is not dependent on any other child's sex. Where do you think this is happening?
 
Human "logic" is only an approximation of real logic and often falls short in cases like this. So lets try a mathematical approach.

1) The sum of probabilities of every possibility equals 1.

2) When a child is born (ignoring hermaphrodites and slight deviations) there are 2 equal possibilities:
B
G
Because of 1) either chance is 1/2.

3) With a second child the possibilities become:
B-B
B-G
G-B
G-G
Creating 4 equal possibilities, each with a chance of 1/4 -> 4 * 1/4 = 1.

4) This implies the chance of having two boys is half that of having both a boy and a girl.
Because there is only one way to have 2 boys, but 2 ways to have both a boy and a girl - as long as no sequence of birth is specified.

5) Now we know G-G is out. That leaves us with these options:
B-B
B-G
G-B
Because the sum of probabilities of every possibility equals 1 and all three options have equal probability they each have chance 1/3.

6) Without additional information (for example, how the oldest child is a boy - we don't know that.) we cannot remove other possibilities. With 3 options of equal probability a chance of 1/2 is impossible.

7) Now without loss of generalisation we can reorder the above:
B-B
B-G
B-G
Which makes it clear chance of a second boy is 1/3.

Look at it this way: In a family of two kids the chance of having single sex offspring (B-B or G-G) is equal that of having mixed sex offspring (B-G or G-B).
Thus, if we remove 1 of the single-sex options the chance of having mixed-sex offspring increases.

@ Earthborn:
If I read your program correctly you assign the first child "boy", then randomly assign the second child boy or girl.
If you would like to improve the model, please try this:

Randomly assign the first child boy or girl.
Randomly assign the second child boy or girl.
(Now you have 'n' families, each with two random chosen children. I think it makes sense, so far ;))
Remove all families with only girls.
From all remaining families, remove one boy. (Since you've seen him, he's no longer an unknown.)
Count the number of remaining boys and girls.

What I don't understand is how this is different from the 'gambler's fallacy', that the previous flip of the coin affects the next one, and so on.
Good question. You can plug it in the above calculation. ;)
See step 6). Since the gambler knows the outcome of his last throw, the 3 remaining possibilities collapse further into 2 - each whith a chance of 1/2.
 
I wrote some code in visual basic to test this out.

This is what the question is asking:
Code:
Dim A As Long
Dim B As Long
Dim C As Long
Dim N As Long
    For N = 1 To 1000
        Do
            B = Int(Rnd * 2) '//random gender
            C = Int(Rnd * 2) '//random gender
        Loop While B + C = 0 '//loop until at least one is a boy
        If B + C = 2 Then '//if the other one is a boy
            A = A + 1 '//add 1 to count
        End If
    Next N
    MsgBox A / 1000 '//returns about .33

and this is what people THINK it means
Code:
Dim A As Long
Dim B(0 To 1) As Long
Dim C As Long
Dim N As Long
    Randomize
    For N = 1 To 1000
        Do
            B(0) = Int(Rnd * 2) '//rangom gender
            B(1) = Int(Rnd * 2) '//rangom gender
            C = Int(Rnd * 2) '//random child
        Loop While B(C) = 0 '//Loop until the randomly picked child is a boy
        If B(1 - C) = 1 Then '//If the other is a boy
            A = A + 1 '//add 1 to count
        End If
    Next N
    MsgBox A / 1000 'about .50
 
Jellby said:
So, is older/younger the only valid distinction for the two children?
Other than male/female ... yes.
The only difference with the shop scene is you now know that the boy you saw is the younger child.
Hold on ... why do you assume that? Where was that ever revealed?
What if you saw the mother giving birth to one son and later you're told she actually had twins... but you don't know whether you saw the first one or the second one?

You would need to know the frequency of Identical vs. Fraternal given a twin birth. I do not know this, and it may differ for two boys vs. two girls as well.
Again, is the distinction between the older and the younger child the only valid one in this case? Could some other information be equivalent? Why is it so?
In this case. it is. We can have (as outcomes for two separate individual births) BB, BG (older boy), GB (older girl) or GG. Note, that 3 of the 4 result in her having at least 1 boy. Therefore, if you're told a woman has at least 1 boy, the chance she has two is 1/3. But if you're told the older is a boy, then only BB and BG are possible outcomes, and her chances of having 2 boys is 1/2. (The same holds true if you're told the younger is a boy -- BB and GB.)
 

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