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Prison

Undesired Walrus

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
11,691
Do you agree with the Prison system in your country, or do you believe it needs massive/moderate reform?

To what extent should someone be punished for their crime, and to what extent should someone who spends their time there be rehabilitated? Should there even be any effort put into rehabilitation, with the focus mainly on punishment?
 
Institutionalized punishment is not an effective way to rehabilitate someone.
 
Institutionalized punishment is not an effective way to rehabilitate someone.
So what options does society have? You can't allow a career criminal to continue preying on honest hard working citizens nor can we allow sexual predators to prey on women, children and men. You have tow options. Let them stay in society or incarcerate them. I've been the victim of violent crime myself and its no picnic.
 
So what options does society have? You can't allow a career criminal to continue preying on honest hard working citizens nor can we allow sexual predators to prey on women, children and men. You have tow options. Let them stay in society or incarcerate them. I've been the victim of violent crime myself and its no picnic.

They used to hang thieves in England. Yes, it was a few centuries ago, but that solved some of the prison problem.

There was a time when horse thieves were hanged in our country.

DR
 
Depends if you are planning on releasing them.
Some people can't be rehabilitated. Megans law came about as the result of a man who raped a little girl being released and then kiilling another little girl named Megan. Some criminals who have been released after thirty or more years pick up where they left off after being released and this includes murderers and rapist etc.
 
So what options does society have? You can't allow a career criminal to continue preying on honest hard working citizens nor can we allow sexual predators to prey on women, children and men. You have tow options. Let them stay in society or incarcerate them. I've been the victim of violent crime myself and its no picnic.

More emphasis on prison education and rehabilitation, shorter prison sentences all around to prevent people from becoming too detached from the outside world, at least decriminalization for marijuana, if not legalization for that and other drugs; it's not hard to come up with a dozen different things to improve the situation without resorting to locking someone in a 4x2 cage for the rest of their lives.

The reason it is untenable is because it is nigh impossible to convince the population at large that punishing or killing a murderer or rapist isn't the best course of action, and that maybe society would be safer in the long run if they were instead rehabilitated into people that don't break the law.

ETA:

Some people can't be rehabilitated. Megans law came about as the result of a man who raped a little girl being released and then kiilling another little girl named Megan. Some criminals who have been released after thirty or more years pick up where they left off after being released and this includes murderers and rapist etc.

There will always be exceptions to every method. It would certainly improve things if it was considered more of an option instead of just going "welp, can't rehabilitate everyone, let's just lock em up and throw away the key". Regarding Megan's law:
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/225370.pdf said:
A December 2008 study by Kristen Zgoba Ph.D., Philip Witt Ph.D., Melissa Dalessandro M.S.W., and Bonita Veysey Ph.D. found that Megan’s Law has no effect on community tenure (i.e., time to first re-arrest), showed no demonstrable effect in reducing sexual re-offenses, has no effect on the type of sexual re-offense or first time sexual offense (still largely child molestation/incest), and has no effect on reducing the number of victims involved in sexual offenses. [...] Start up costs totaled $555,565 and current costs (in 2007) totaled approximately 3.9 million dollars for the 15 responding counties in New Jersey according to the study. The authors feel that given the lack of demonstrated effect of Megan’s Law on sexual offenses, the growing costs may not be justifiable. Philip Witt is a psychologist and the co-principal author of the study who helped implement Megan's Law in New Jersey.
 
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I've written up several lengthy posts on my view of the penal system; easily the worst aspect of the criminal justice system in total.
In serious need of reform.
 
The reason it is untenable is because it is nigh impossible to convince the population at large that punishing or killing a murderer or rapist isn't the best course of action, and that maybe society would be safer in the long run if they were instead rehabilitated into people that don't break the law.

The reason I consider it untenable is that it is impossible, AFAIK, to tell if some one is actually rehabilitated or not.

Dale H
 
The reason I consider it untenable is that it is impossible, AFAIK, to tell if some one is actually rehabilitated or not.

Dale H

If they don't break the law again, I would consider that rehabilitated. I can't tell if you're a criminal or not either, until you actuall commit a crime. Likewise I can't tell if a recidivist is one until he actually falls back in his old ways.
 
Do you agree with the Prison system in your country, or do you believe it needs massive/moderate reform?

To what extent should someone be punished for their crime, and to what extent should someone who spends their time there be rehabilitated? Should there even be any effort put into rehabilitation, with the focus mainly on punishment?

I believe that there is a certain beenfit to removing people from the general population.

However here is the US the system has many faults and flaws.

The largest that i see is the huge effect that money has in the ability to go through the legal system. If you can pay for a lawyer you get many, many benefits that someone who can't afford a private lawyer gets. The sentence will be lighter, the consequences will be lighter and overall you will get better treatment.


This is just the tip of ice berg, as the influence of poverty is not effected by prison.
 
I honestly think that legalizing drugs (which would result in virtually no black market for them, would require the user to show ID to a licensed professional, doses would be regulated, drugs would be safer, street gangs would lose a ton of money and neo-conservatives would have a collective aneurysm) would help free up alot of the time, money and resources needed for better rehabilitation.

It would seem our inability to rehabilitate prisoners, lies (partially) with our lack of funding for decent rehabilititation programs. There's obviously many of those that are simply incurable, the biggest question is how to handle them. It seems the prison system itself is designed to perpetuate crime, to a certain degree.

Once a person has a felony on their record it makes it twice as hard to get work once they get out of prison and with the temptation of the easy money associated with crime (in stark, direct contrast with a low paying, high risk, factory job) it is quite understandable that there'd be a lot of repeat offenders under this circumstance. Lordy knows I'd choose the former over the ladder under the same circumstances!

They need job placement programs (if they don't have them already), they need compassionate and humane facilities. They need to train their guards to handle certain types of inmates differently...(Afterall, Tommy Chong should not be treated like Charlie Manson)

The Buddhist Peace Fellowship Prison Project has had some success...According to wikipedia, they:

work with prisoners and their families and other religious groups in an effort to address violence within the criminal justice system. They oppose the implementation of capital punishment and also offer prisons information on chaplaincy opportunities. The committee's founding director was Diana Lion, who also has served as associate director of the Buddhist Peace Fellowship.

...the BPF Prison project...is attempting to transform the prison system through reforming the prison-industrial complex, abolishing the death penalty, and bringing the teachings of "dharma" to those persons confined in prisons and jails...
Now, although I am an Atheist, it does seem that there could be some benefits to prisoners who might be encouraged to read or discuss philosophies of this type. Plus they are nonsectarian. This would be a good example of how to approach the system. Granted this wouldn't work for every prisoner, but it's a great path for many.

A documentary about this project came out a while ago, I can't remember for the life of me what it was called. But I guess they had a pretty good success rate on previous repeat offenders.

Compassion is what's really missing I think. Many of the more extreme criminals get the shaft on the streets, from their parents, from their peers and society and they go into prison and get the same treatment. You can't break a vicious cycle by adding to it.

Great question, I was actually just thinking of this the other day, while watching a great Frontline documentary called The New Asylums...It's about how Mental Hospitals have been overflowing and as a result, many prisons have become defacto asylums.

So there's my two cents
 
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Somewhere between half and 3/4 of all US prison population are non-violent drug users who are in prison for nothing but using drugs. They should be in treatment at most, not in prison. I say "at most" because a lot of them, especially marijuana users, lead entirely functional productive lives, are not "slaves to a drug", and have no need of treatment. Let alone of jail.
 
A long and contentious argument on this topic:

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2009/08/merciless.html

Notice that the blog's author (SF writer Charlie Stross) has rather low opinion of United States, not just of its prison system. Some things may be hard to swallow, particularly specific example of Al Megrahi. But I very much agree with Stross on the topic of prisoner treatment in general, and particularly on (American) society's attitude to prison rape.
 
Somewhere between half and 3/4 of all US prison population are non-violent drug users who are in prison for nothing but using drugs.

This is not true. According to the DOJ, about 20% of inmates are in for drug offenses (and that includes all drug offenses not just simple possession). That said, I think that drugs should be legalized and all non-violent drug offenders released from prison/jail. Doing so would free up much needed space for those that belong in prison yet get paroled too often. As far as I am concerned, we should throw away the key after locking up murderers, rapists and child molesters.
 
This is not true. According to the DOJ, about 20% of inmates are in for drug offenses (and that includes all drug offenses not just simple possession). That said, I think that drugs should be legalized and all non-violent drug offenders released from prison/jail. Doing so would free up much needed space for those that belong in prison yet get paroled too often. As far as I am concerned, we should throw away the key after locking up murderers, rapists and child molesters.

While those in for drug offenses is 20%, those "in prison for doing drugs" is quite a bit higher if we include people on probation for non-violent property offenses who wind up in prison because they can't stop using illegal drugs and repeatedly fail urine tests.

Absent the using drugs, those people would be free. The number of people in for drug\alcohol related probation violations in my state is staggering, in fact that is in some counties the only way you can parlay a property felony into a jail sentence.

I'm up to my eyeballs in this issue, and there are two basic reforms I would make:

1) Probation departments treat substance abuse problem relapses as a disease rather then a moral failing or show of contempt for the law. There is a program in north WVa right now that is more reward based (little things like gift certificates) than fear based that has shown absurdly positive results as to completion and recidivism.

2) More education opportunities for prisoners. Getting a college degree in jail reduces recidivism to near zero.
 
Violent crime in America has been trending downward for at least 2 decades and has reached multi-decadal lows. This is in large part due to longer sentences for criminals. Keeping criminals off of the streets and out of the general population does indeed reduce crime. Rehabilitation just doesn't work. It may work in some individual cases, but recidivism rates are very high.

That being said, we as a society owe prison inmates certain things. They should be able to expect safety which includes the expectation that they will not be the victim of rape. One thing that disgusts me is the way prison rape is a subject of humor instead of horror and how some people view being raped in prison as part of the punishment. That seems to be a widespread outlook shared by much of society, including politicians.

The "war on drugs" has had terrible consequences. At the very least, marijuana should be legalised, and simple possession of a drug should not result in a prison sentence. At most, drug possession should be treated like traffic or parking tickets. Violent crimes as part of the drug trade are very different than simple possession or use.
 
More emphasis on prison education and rehabilitation, shorter prison sentences all around to prevent people from becoming too detached from the outside world

Isn't "detaching criminals from the outside world" rather the point of imprisonment, which makes sense, considering what they did when they were attached to the world?

That some (perhaps many) drug users don't belong in prison is another issue. But if they don't belong in prison, don't prosecute them. No reason to treat rapists and murderers leniently in compensation.
 
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I would change major things;

1. Many fewer things would be felonies - I'd decriminalize drugs and prostitution (and the taxes would balance most state budgets.) So the prison population would be smaller.

2. All prisoners would have their own, unshared cell.

3. All sentences would be to solitary confinement.

4. All sentences barring life would be about half the duration they are now, but there will only be parole for unusual events like terminal illness or family tragedy, and that might be very limited parole.

5. No death penalty at all because the appeals cost the state a fortune, and I think life in solitary is actually more of a deterrent.

The major problem is that prison becomes a place for criminals to organize. And this actually brings crime INTO the prison. No contact with other prisoners means no chance to exchange notes, "hit" other gang members, or deal in contraband.
 
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