Prison System Issues/Discussion

[marplots]

And that is exactly the point.

The American prison system is working exactly as intended. It was originally designed to perpetuate the institution of de facto slavery, after de novo slavery had been explicitly outlawed. Which was also the reason that prisons have always had a disproportionately high rate of incarceration for minority populations.

At a time when prisons were undergoing substantial reforms to reduce this effect, to enact education and job-skills training programs, eliminate the use of prison labour, and reduce overall recidivism, the Private Prison Industry was founded to bypass those reforms, and take over the role of slave master. It's not by coincidence that this happened concurrently with the biggest escalation of the War on Drugs in its entire history, and the largest mass incarceration of non-violent offenders since the Reconstruction days. It was shortly to benefit from the widespread adoption of "Three Strikes" laws, which though its lobbying efforts it helped to support.

This period also effectively cemented the school-to-prison pipeline for black and other minority communities.

Dropping crime rates, liberalization of drug laws and elimination of Three Strikes statutes, widespread abuses within the system, and the failure of reforms in many states to end prison labour in publicly-run institutions, kept private prisons from becoming a much bigger industry and taking the lion's share of inmates. As it stands, those that remain typically have contracts that mandate a minimum inmate population, and their lobbyists still work hard to push privatization. A lobbying effort which has seen some success, as the Trump administration has rolled back the Obama administration's push to eliminate federal use of for-profit prisons.

If I understand your narrative correctly, the description you give in the last paragraph undermines that given in the first few.

But it shouldn't be too hard to check.
How many private prisons are in the US and what percentage of inmates do they hold?
How much money does prison labor produce (I think it was "slavery" wasn't it?) compared to how much prisons cost to run?

 

[Arcade22]

That's the rub, no? Who decides whether or not a crime has a direct bearing on employment? If I own a Stop-and-Go market the customer base of which is largely school children, would that qualify? Or if I am a contractor that does a lot of work on K-12 schools, should I be able to ask? A fair portion of my work requires security clearances of one kind or another,. should I be required to hire employees without first determining whether or not they are likely to get those clearances?

Of course exceptions can be made for sensitive professions and positions. In Sweden employers in certain sectors, including those involving schools and children but also insurance brokers, are obligated to demand that potential employees get an certificate of their criminal records and show it to them.

In Sweden everyone technically has a criminal record (it's called belastningsregister in Swedish, of which a literal translation would be "load/burden records") even-though for most people it's empty. Any convictions that one has are purged from ones records depending on the specific sentence. Any prison, probation or suspended sentence is purged ten years after the sentence is deemed to have been completed unless they have been convicted of another crime in the meantime so the criminal records of repeat offenders can continue to record their convictions for longer.

There's nothing legally preventing other employers from asking potential employees of any legal problems/convictions or requesting to see their criminal record. In many cases it's more about ascertaining how trustworthy and honest an potential employee is rather than excluding criminals from employment. If more and more employers start to exclude criminals only because their criminal convictions, even if they happen to be upfront and honest about it, then it would likely be problematic.

 

[Metullus]

Of course exceptions can be made for sensitive professions and positions. In Sweden employers in certain sectors, including those involving schools and children but also insurance brokers, are obligated to demand that potential employees get an certificate of their criminal records and show it to them.

In Sweden everyone technically has a criminal record (it's called belastningsregister in Swedish, of which a literal translation would be "load/burden records") even-though for most people it's empty. Any convictions that one has are purged from ones records depending on the specific sentence. Any prison, probation or suspended sentence is purged ten years after the sentence is deemed to have been completed unless they have been convicted of another crime in the meantime so the criminal records of repeat offenders can continue to record their convictions for longer.

There's nothing legally preventing other employers from asking potential employees of any legal problems/convictions or requesting to see their criminal record. In many cases it's more about ascertaining how trustworthy and honest an potential employee is rather than excluding criminals from employment. If more and more employers start to exclude criminals only because their criminal convictions, even if they happen to be upfront and honest about it, then it would likely be problematic.

If we are to propose a law that prohibits an employer from querying a prospective employee regarding his criminal record, as was proposed in the OP, it seems to me that we will need to carve out certain exceptions. Some of these exceptions are fairly obvious; others, perhaps, not so much. How do we identify these exceptions? Do we survey every industry to identify exceptions? Will we hold harmless an employer if an employee, whose criminal past is unknown to the employer, reoffends whilst on the payroll?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

How much money does prison labor produce (I think it was "slavery" wasn't it?) compared to how much prisons cost to run?

Fun fact: it's literally slavery.

Here's the text of the 13th amendment:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

 

[marplots]

Fun fact: it's literally slavery.

Here's the text of the 13th amendment:

Is that what private prisons are doing?

 

[ahhell]

Here in the UK, any job or voluntary role that brings a person into contact with vulnerable groups such as children, the elderly, those with mental health problems etc requires the applicant to have a DBS check. Having a criminal record does not exclude someone from taking up a post, as long as their conviction isn't related to the job/voluntary role for which they are applying.

I volunteer for the Samaritans, and there are fellow volunteers with criminal convictions, but not convictions related to offences against vulnerable groups.

I think it is necessary for some employers to ask about criminal convictions; employers will not want somebody who has been convicted of theft being in charge of the petty cash or the company bank account, even if that person has entirely reformed!

I don't think the issue is that employers are saying that they won't hire ex-cons, its more along the lines using it as a way to quickly reduce the applicant pool If you have 10 applicants for 2 jobs and 6 are felons, you use that box as a way reduce the effort of reading the applications or resumes to just the 4 that aren't.


Prison labor is more along the lines of involuntary servitude than slavery as a slave is property and prisoners aren't property their just incarcerated. Perhaps a distinction without difference though.

Will we hold harmless an employer if an employee, whose criminal past is unknown to the employer, reoffends whilst on the payroll?

Don't we now? Except maybe if the offender is a pedophile hired by a school that didn't do a background check?

 

[bytewizard]

If I understand your narrative correctly, the description you give in the last paragraph undermines that given in the first few.

But it shouldn't be too hard to check.
How many private prisons are in the US and what percentage of inmates do they hold?
How much money does prison labor produce (I think it was "slavery" wasn't it?) compared to how much prisons cost to run?

Private prisons house around 7% of State prisoners and 18% of federal. Also house around 75% of undocumented immigrants.

 

[Civet]

Private prisons house around 7% of State prisoners and 18% of federal.

Interesting. I'd have guessed much higher given how much talk there is about private prisons as a problem. Any sense of how their recidivism rates compare to those of government-run prisons?

 

[bytewizard]

Interesting. I'd have guessed much higher given how much talk there is about private prisons as a problem. Any sense of how their recidivism rates compare to those of government-run prisons?

Those numbers are difficult to find. Part of the reason is the different types of facilities; low, medium or high security or a combination of those.

 

[ahhell]

The odd focus on private prisons in the discussion of reform is really a red herring. As noted, its a much smaller percentage of the prison population than most folks expect. The growth of private prisons has also been a trailing indicator. The rise of private prisons did not occur concurrently with the rise of incarceration rates and tough on crime laws, it followed after. Its also notworthy that public prison guard unions have lobbied for the same laws that private prison operators have but nobody talks about union busting as a reform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association

Lobbying efforts and campaign contributions by the CCPOA have helped secure passage of numerous legislative bills favorable to union members, including bills that increase prison terms, member pay, and enforce current drug laws. The CCPOA takes the position that correctional officers perform an essential public service that puts in great danger, and strives for a safer California

 

[crescent]

Private prisons house around 7% of State prisoners and 18% of federal. Also house around 75% of undocumented immigrants.

Do you know how much of that is post-sentencing, and how much is people being held before or during trial?

I am under the impression that the private prisons hold more of long-term inmates.

 

[bytewizard]

Do you know how much of that is post-sentencing, and how much is people being held before or during trial?

I am under the impression that the private prisons hold more of long-term inmates.

I believe those numbers are for post-sentencing. Most private prisons house inmates that are contracted out by state, and are long term inmates. For instance, a private prison(medium security) in Arizona is contracted by the state of Hawaii and houses only men who were convicted and sentenced in Hawaii.

 

[Mumbles]

Mostly posting because I want to follow the conversation but...

The goal of prisons should mostly be to reduce recidivism but in the US it seems to mostly be punishment. I understand the emotional appeal of that but its not very helpful for society. There is some research out there that this may be partially be a down side to diversity. In less diverse places, like the Nordics, people are more empathic towards their fellow citizens.

I think we need the following reforms.
a. End the drug war, this will improve society in many ways but relieving pressure on the justice system is high on that list.

In the US, yes, absolutely - although I question whether or not this would immediately lead to some utopia.

b. Make it illegal to ask if folks have been convicted of a crime on Job applications. This will give ex-cons a chance at reform.

Unfortunately, employers know the difference in conviction rates varies by race (but not why). Guess what many of them will do if you simply implement this?

Better to expunge the record based on the severity of the crime - this would also restore voting rights, permitting to go to universities, and various other things that felons are often blocked from.

(Police reform and actually making an effort to not house people in contaminated slums would help, too!)

c. We should spend more on education in prison than we currently do technical, professional, and general education. But I really think the first 2 reforms are more important.

Agreed here - as well as allowing work at market rates rather than slave wages. This would allow, among other issues, keeping up on any child payments and the like.

(Note that I haven't really worked out the "What happens to the prison jobs?" section yet - some towns basically rely on prisons as an economic backbone, and they can be pretty influential legislatively.)

 

[Suddenly]

I think crescents suggestion is appropriate. If the crime has a direct bearing on the job, ie, pedophiles and kindergarten teachers. Other than that, it just means an ex-con will have trouble getting a job at a gas station.

The U.S. EEOC guidelines operate along these general lines.

(I had the odd experience of teaching employment law as part of a business degree program in a maximum security prison. For some reason they were very interested in this subject...)

Prisons should be run more like summer camp for a whole ton of reasons. The best is that you want to put people in a position to be able to exist in society. A lot of these guys just need basic skills and the ability to live a structured life, especially if they had such chaotic upbringings that the idea of being a productive citizen is a totally foreign concept.

Education reduces recidivism. It makes punishment fetishists mad, but maybe the punishment fetishists need to realize that the worst sorts of criminals will find a summer camp environment far more excruciating than they do the violent drama prisons tend to present.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Guess what many of them will do if you simply implement this?

Tone down their discrimination to barely-legal passive aggression, eventually resulting in a more widespread social acceptance because it's no longer possible to have their prejudices publicly affirmed by their peers?

 

[Belz...]

If they are for correction then it seems that a softer approach is preferred. If they are for punishment then the harder the better up to and including criminal activities perpetrated upon each other while inside.

The two aren't mutually-exclusive, though.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The two aren't mutually-exclusive, though.

Not sure if they are mutually exclusive they may well be but they are definitely at odds with one another.

 

[luchog]

As noted, its a much smaller percentage of the prison population than most folks expect.

Which is the result of several reform processes for public prisons failing to achieve their goals, that of ending forced prison labour or otherwise profiting off of prisoners, and thereby obviating the need for for-profit prisons to circumvent those laws. For example, it is legal in nearly every state in the unions to charge prisoners "rent" while they are incarcerated. Prisoners are often released with tens of thousands of dollars in debt hanging over their heads. Further, they can also be charged for any medical care they receive, and in some states visitors can also be charged a fee.

Private, for-profit prisons are effectively redundant at that point, since public prisons have been made as for-profit as the laws allow. Not nearly enough to actually turn a profit, but not for lack of trying. Were that not the case, I have no doubt that the private prison industry would have grown much faster and much larger.

Another issue with private prisons is that their contracts specify that they handle only certain types of prisoners, typically offenders with non-violent or low-level violent offenses. The "easy" prisoners, leaving the dangerous and difficult prisoners for the public prisons.

As noted by bytewizard, however, they have become the primary repository for undocumented immigrants.

Part of the problem with trying to get statistics on for-profit prisons is that they are not subject to the same record-keeping requirements as public prisons, and even when they are, such requirements are often not handled to standard, and enforcement is disturbingly lax.

 

[The Norseman]

I don't think the issue is that employers are saying that they won't hire ex-cons, its more along the lines using it as a way to quickly reduce the applicant pool If you have 10 applicants for 2 jobs and 6 are felons, you use that box as a way reduce the effort of reading the applications or resumes to just the 4 that aren't.

Are you sure you meant to say this, because it's contradictory (to me, at least). Employers are not saying they won't hire ex-cons but that they'll use that information to cull them from being interviewed in the first place — i.e., not hiring them?

 

[deadrose]

Let's not forget how many call centers are prison-run. Think about that next time you call customer service or order-by-phone. Your office furniture may well have been made in a prison. Ditto the uniforms in your local McDonalds, and some of the food you eat.

https://www.unicor.gov/Shopping/viewCat_m.asp?iStore=UNI

Most of the work is technically paid, at a dollar or two a day, to use in the commissary for toothpaste, soap, snacks, and so on, but since so many states are also billing you for your stay and food, at much higher rates, there's no way you can keep yourself out of debt.

Some people say they're learning useful skills to use on the outside. Well, no, because those jobs are all outsourced to the prisons or out of the country. How many industrial garment manufacturers run factories in the US legitimately? How many license plate factories are there in your town?

Maybe if we quit outsourcing, there would be jobs available to the people now working as prison employees, or for the people getting out of prison. But that will never happen when all that matters is endless economic growth and shareholder profits at any cost.