• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Prime time live

delphi_ote

Philosopher
D
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
5,994
What happened? Randi was on for less than 30 seconds, called a "debunker," and the rest of the show portrayed everything in a "miraculous" light.

And this doctor... does anyone know more about him?
 
delphi_ote said:
What happened? Randi was on for less than 30 seconds, called a "debunker," and the rest of the show portrayed everything in a "miraculous" light.

And this doctor... does anyone know more about him?
Click to expand...
I know, I don't think he was even on for 30 seconds. So much for the skeptical viewpoint. And that "doctor"! He wasn't too impressive and all too ready to buy into the "woo" viewpoint. As if reaming out your nasal cavity could have any theraputic effect. Stimulating the pituitary gland my *ss!

I'm so mad at those people for buying into this idiocy yet at the same time I feel so much for them because they're so desperate and it's their last hope. I'd like to see ABC follow up on them in 1 or 2 years and see how many of them are still alive. I feel for them but at the same time, not going through proven medical procedures (that actress with the breast cancer) and depending on this quack stuff instead is a death sentence.

I've got to give Randi and people like Randi enormous credit for perservering in the face of such irrationality and dismissal. You know he was taped for much longer than what they showed, and I applaud him for keeping at it even in the face of such ignorance.
 
It was horrible beyond belief. They must have cut out tons of Randi's material. This won't do a thing but make more people go to that creep. I could kill ABC.
 
I just feel so hopeless. That was literally a 1 hour commercial for faith healing on prime time network television. The commentator even gave excuses for the "woo" when his arm didn't heal.

Think of how much damage that one show did... how many hopeless people are going to watch it and say, "well, why not give it a try?"

I hope Randi has some kind of recourse in this week's commentary. That was downright awful.
 
Pardon me for posting this in two places, but I just happened to be in the TV forum first and this goes better here...

I know, I know, I should have expected it, but...

D**N!

How can they whitewash this crap like that? They call themselves REPORTERS? I knew before the show exactly what the results would be - the two people with cancer would not have that cancer go away, the paralyzed woman would not walk, and OF COURSE the man with ALS would continue to waste away, for THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A CASE OF SPONTANEOUS REMISSION OF ALS.

Oh, and of course the woman with "chronic fatigue syndrome" would feel better.

Ain't life f**king grand.

One aside - Now I wouldn't believe John Quinones if he told me that Bill Clinton likes sex or that Bush lied about WMDs.
 
" What we learned, unfortunately, is that people bring a lot of baggage to the operating room. It's not just the heart that's the problem. The heart trouble may be the result of other things: pressure, anxiety, anger, whatever. If you take care of the heart and stop there, you're abdicating your responsibility to the patient. What patients really need you to do is heal them in entirety.

I'm trying to find out what kind of impact energy healers, hypnotherapists, acupuncturists, and aromatherapists can have ..." -Mehmet Oz

Do I hear a train coming through?
 
http://www.oprah.com/tows/booksseen/tows_book_20001002_mehmet.jhtml

"He explains the value of complementary therapies such as hypnosis, guided imagery, massage, reflexology, aromatherapy, music therapy, prayer, yoga, and energy medicine, detailing studies and case histories of their use in combination with the latest surgical techniques. Healing From The Heart is a must-read for all who suffer from illness, particularly heart and surgery patients, and their loved ones."

It seems Dr. Oz's train is unstoppable!

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec98/alternative_8-27.html

Curious how much he's published in journals. Is there a doctor in the house?
 
Looks like there are 3 threads busy on this right now, one in the medicine area, one in the tv/media area, and this one. I can barely cut and paste so can't link to them, but maybe it would be good for somebody to help us all pull this together, there are some great comments so far. Help!
 
A quick medline search on Dr. Oz (2003-4):
1. Mukherjee D. Oz M. Prager R. Eagle KA. Elective coronary revascularization, an iatrogenic form of acute coronary syndrome: how can clinicians reduce the risks?. [Review] [56 refs] [Journal Article. Review] American Heart Journal. 148(3):371-7, 2004 Sep.
UI: 15389221
•
2. Schuster M. Ankersmit J. Kocher A. Lietz K. Schuster N. Hofmann M. John R. Edwards N. Oz M. Itescu S. Induction of T-cell apoptosis by polyurethane biomaterials used in left ventricular assist devices is dependent on calcineurin activation. [Journal Article] Transplantation Proceedings. 33(1-2):1958-9, 2001 Feb-Mar. UI: 11267587

•
3. Oz M. Zhang L. Ravindran A. Morales M. Lupica CR. Differential effects of endogenous and synthetic cannabinoids on alpha7-nicotinic acetylcholine receptor-mediated responses in Xenopus Oocytes. [Journal Article] Journal of Pharmacology & Experimental Therapeutics. 310(3):1152-60, 2004 Sep.
UI: 15102930

• •
4. Oz M. Emerging role of integrative medicine in cardiovascular disease. [Review] [16 refs] [Journal Article. Review. Review, Tutorial] Cardiology in Review. 12(2):120-3, 2004 Mar-Apr
UI: 14766027

• •
5. Selim Isbir C. Yildirim T. Akgun S. Civelek A. Aksoy N. Oz M. Arsan S. Coronary artery bypass surgery in patients with severe left ventricular dysfunction. [Journal Article] International Journal of Cardiology. 90(2-3):309-16, 2003 Aug.
UI: 12957767

• •
6. Williams M. Casher J. Joshi N. Hankinson T. Warren M. Oz M. Naka Y. Mancini D. Insertion of a left ventricular assist device in patients without thorough transplant evaluations: a worthwhile risk?. [Evaluation Studies. Journal Article] Journal of Thoracic & Cardiovascular Surgery. 126(2):436-41, 2003 Aug.
UI: 12928641

• •
7. Mancini D. Pinney S. Burkhoff D. LaManca J. Itescu S. Burke E. Edwards N. Oz M. Marks AR. Use of rapamycin slows progression of cardiac transplantation vasculopathy.[see comment]. [Clinical Trial. Journal Article. Randomized Controlled Trial] Circulation. 108(1):48-53, 2003 Jul 8.
UI: 12742978

• •
8. Maybaum S. Stockwell P. Naka Y. Catanese K. Flannery M. Fisher P. Oz M. Mancini D. Assessment of myocardial recovery in a patient with acute myocarditis supported with a left ventricular assist device: a case report. [Case Reports. Journal Article] Journal of Heart & Lung Transplantation. 22(2):202-9, 2003 Feb
UI: 12581771


Here's the abstract for the one "integrative med" paper:

Cardiology in Review. 12(2):120-3, 2004 Mar-Apr.

Abstract
Our evolution toward a more integrative approach toward healing will accelerate if we can alter the different perspectives that patients and physicians bring to their relationship. This article reviews lessons that have been acquired using alternative approaches to facilitate the recovery of patients undergoing invasive procedures. After identifying that most of our patients use alternative therapies but prefer not to discuss these therapies with their surgeons, we began to routinely refer our patients to a coordinator trained in this field. The resulting integrative medicine program offers massage, yoga, audiotapes, and additional customized treatments. The coexisting research laboratory designs and conducts well-organized research endeavors evaluating the efficacy of therapies being offered. By mixing clinical practice with conventional research, we seek to emulate the successful formula used in allopathic medicine. [References: 16]
 
I did think that the South African woman's closing comments really echoed Randi's words--I just wish the producers had tied them together better. Yes, that poor woman believed that her pilgrammage helped; after that effort and expense, how could she not?

And yet, she (and others) will be praised for keeping an open mind... open to anything but the possibility that they wasted their time and money on a fraud.
 
I feel terrible and depressed, but I'm getting better because I'm getting more energized to fight the battle.
 
One thing I noticed. The "healer" brought the two women in together for their "visible" surgeries. The woman with the allergies had her breast cut and the woman with the breast cancer got her nose reamed. He must have got them crossed, not that it mattered what he did to them.
 
I'm a cross-poster, too, just so anyone who missed the show can see how little time they gave Randi...

From here: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52393

How much of Randi's time did they actually waste in exchange for that 15 second snippet?

I'm guessing that he explained the techniques of most of what was shown, laying out the facts and describing how relatively easy much of the trickery was. In return, ABC shows only enough to make it look like all Randi can do is Ad-hom these guys.

For anyone who missed it, all that was shown of Randi's interview was the comment:

"There are no greater liars in the world than quacks, except, for their patients. Remember, these people have gone for this kind of bizarre treatment. If they have to admit no, I'm not helped by this, I was swindled, they have to say I was pretty damn stupid to go in there and think that sticking something up my nose was going to cure my back". (Direct quotes compliments of TiVo)
 
Cross posting here.

This whole report came off as really slanted towards the woo factor, with a few skeptical comments and a bit of Randi on the side to make it APPEAR (however flimsy) somewhat fair. It was anything but fair reporting.

The actress with breast cancer was not healed, it's still advancing, no matter how quickly or slowly, the fact is it still advances. No cure there.
The guy with ALS still has ALS. No cure there.
The paralyzed woman still cannot walk, she seems to be making progress, can this be attributed that to this witchdoctor?, no proof there, therefore no cure there.

Then they throw in the "expert" conventional doctor. Well, at the very best this guy has pretty much NOTHING to say as far as I'm concerned. He comes up with some half-baked theory about people believing in this so strongly that they heal themselves. This is spreading another kind of woo belief, not only do we see the witchdoctor at work, but now we have a conventional medical doctor suggesting the power of self-healing. Oh and that making contact with the pituitary gland may stimulate healing, yet another theory that has no basis in proof. If there is proof of this, why didn't ABC show it?

This seems like a lead-in to the 2-hour UFO special in two weeks, that's what I think this really was.
 
Nose surgery

Just because it's so close to the brain, I don't like it! This author, El-hai, wrote a piece in the Washington Post Magazine that was very disturbing to me. I still remember it. Freeman believed that the lobotomy was a great thing, and it was accomplished with sharp objects pushed into the eye socket, through the thin bone behind, and then stirred around in the brain. He apparently was so self-sure that he would do many patients in a day, and even two at once.

Sure, tweezers in the pituitary sound nice enough, but I would exercise caution if I were practicing or receiving these treatments.

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/artsa...&mode=view&pname=1080&cid=1081&day=1107925200
 
TruthSeeker said:
A quick medline search on Dr. Oz (2003-4)...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the fast reply. I guess this is a texbook example of a guy who is very good at what he does dragging out his credentials to give weight to arguments that have nothing to do with them.

"I don't care what it is, if you really feel better with this kind of tragic injury, we need to research that," he said. "Crawfish regrow their nerves, right? Maybe there are things that we could harvest in our psyche that allows us to do it as well."

Another quote from Dr. "I'm from" Oz .

Of course, even if he did voice some skepticism or quantified his ramblings a bit, I have a feeling it would've ended up in the same place Randi's comments did.

Edit: to clarify I was NOT implying Randi was rambling.
 
I'll elaborate a little, not a lot-- thanks for reading. I think there's a lot of expertise on JREF that was energized and offended by the ABC program on "John of God." Maybe this can be the place we focus it, if not one of the other threads will do.

The video image of the man with white coat, putting forceps/tweezers up a nose, and having a person with blood emerging from said nose, is disturbing to me. I guess it did look like there was gauze involved, but an easy explanation would be a little blood-bladder type mini balloon is inserted, and pierced, and the effect is utterly compelling.

If the guy really did create a laceration in the nose, wow, it would be a miracle to me if it just stopped bleeding. I've had nosebleeds from trauma, allergies, irritations, etc. and that is not easy to just stop a nosebleed. Just my personal opinion. Cocaine does stop nosebleeds, I think. Vasoconstriction. But a man of faith would certainly have no need for such things. And the mild euphoria can also be explained.

The image of the white-coated doctor shoving things into cavities is very aversive, to some. We certainly don't want gynecologists in white coats with big metal objects, no indeed. But there is some difference I must be missing. I guess the trappings and costumes of hospital medicine are soothing insofar as we won't get germs, but not good enough that we trust the rest. Who knows.

Isn't the nasal sinus one of the more intricate things out there? I've heard that infection there can have serious and unpredictable results.
 
Sorry, can't help myself--

The lady with the cut on her chest, now that one isn't too hard. Sharp cuts, like razors or scalpels, slice cleanly through the layers (but not too deep). If this happens on your finger while whittling, model-making, or doing amateur car repair, you go crazy if you happen to see them. If you don't witness the event, pain somehow manages to wait until you "see" it. Either way the wound needs treatment, but the emotional pain and nausea doesn't start until you see it. Again based on my experience.

So once you've been cut, it's clear that the wound on your chest, that you can't see, might heal faster than one on your thigh, for example. Even the smallest wounds are irritating daily when they are on your finger, or tongue, or some other highly ennervated tissue.

Double blind Buttocks test. Equal lacerations, totally clean, great "post-op" on both, one on each butt cheek. The prayer team of your choice gets a random cheek 'A'. No prayer for the 'B' cheek. Place your bets and donate the winnings to the charity of your choice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom