Poor Parenting Skills

Eos, I have a couple of suggestions.

First, I'd contact the school, and enlist the aid of someone there (the principal, vice principal, your kids teacher), explaining the situation you're facing and how you need them to be your eyes and ears while they are there. In my experience, they are only too happy to help. I'd also schedule weekly phone call updates to discuss any issues that may arise.

Second, I'd contact your neighbours and indicate that they must check with you before providing your kids with anything.

Third, you might consider some family counselling. It sounds to me like there might be underlying stuff going on. If you're in Calgary, I can get you a couple of names/numbers. PM me if you wish.

Best of luck!
 
You're right. The parent teacher meeting I had today was a real eye opener. It was easier at my oldest son's other school when there was daily communication. I could at least try weekly now at his middle school. At least until we resolve some of the issues.

I guess counseling might be an idea too. I have no excuse to be lazy here and not even try. I don't live in Calgary, but I do know of a place that may help.

Better than being frustrated and angry. Action instead of reaction (repeating to self 10 times).

Thank you, it does help to post these things sometimes and get a rational thought from others.

Much appreciated,

Eos
 
Eos, my daughter pulls some of the same crap, although usually not at school but with other parents.

I'll offer to cook something to eat. Bratwursts? "NO, I HATE BRATWURSTS!" How about hamburgers? "NO, I HATE THE HAMBURGERS YOU MAKE!" Well, how about soup then? "NO, I HATE SOUP!" Fine then don't eat, I'm not going to sit here for an hour listing foods for you. "I DON'T LIKE ANY OF THE FOOD IN THE HOUSE, I WANT FAST FOOD." No, you at what's here or not at all.

Later at friends house... "I HAVEN'T EATEN ANYTHING ALL DAY!"


Also, she's one of those kids who are partial to wearing the same clothes over and over again. I'm sure her teachers think that she only has two shirts and one pair of pants. And she won't wear stuff like snowpants to school if she thinks that no one else is. When I pick her up she'll be mad that the teacher made her stay in at recess because she wasn't wearing the snowpants that I suggested. Then I'm hoping that the teacher is not thinking that I am neglectful and that I didn't "let" my daughter wear her snowpants. I'm sure she's not telling them that it's her idea and she had to suffer the consequences of her bad decision.

Thankfully, her teachers have always understood what the real situation is.
 
I just erased my post (bangs head on computer).

okay, well, Denise's post made me smile. My son shouts the same way. Sometimes kids are the way they are despite parenting.

I was focussing on education. I'm lucky my son is ina school where they have a program that focusses on his strenghths (high energy, math, physical education) instead of him getting kicked out of school because he can't handle a regular classroom setting. No amount of parenting or parenting courses will ever get him to be a regular kid-he does have a genetic disorder. Getting kicked out of a regular classroom would spell disaster for his kids when he has them. He would be angry at the system for rejecting him and barely able to be a provider at low paying jobs.

Then there's the other scenario where kids have 'bad' parents. Parenting classes would have never been a help when I was a kid. My mom got schizophrenic when I was 5. Try giving her parenting classes. She was too proud to accept charity, but couldn't work steady. So we kids went hungry a lot.

So there I was. A kid with no savings to go to college. On top of that I had put myself through high school while working and paying rent, etc. You had to have a certain percentage of the college tuition without student loans in order to go to college. You try saving money on minimum wage and trying to pay for living expenses.

A few years later I have a kid, and I swallow my pride and live in subsidized housing and go to the food bank so that my kid doesn't have to go hungry. You can't have any sort of savings on subsidized living-cause that means you don't need subsidized living. You get kind of stuck trying to go to school. Oh, by the way, if you are in any post secondary education around here, you do not qualify for welfare...that is what student loans are for if you can get one. So how do you ever get into a job that pays more than minimum wage?

My point here is that most people are not liking being disadvantaged, and are not trying to stay that way. They aren't teaching their kids to be that way. Try saving for your kids's educations when you are barely making it. I did finally manage some secondary education (working three jobs, etc) and got into jobs that paid more than minimum wage. That was extremely stressful to get, and contributed to some physical problems due to the stress. I think it was worth it though.

So here I am, barely making it, but no longer needing any kind of subsidized living. Still can't put money away for my kids' educations though. So how are they ever going to earn a decent living?

The more education parents have, the better parents they usually are.

You can't judge parents by their kids, and you can't judge kids by their parents. Things are better for my one son who will never be going to college due to lack of funds and ability, but he wants to do physical labour anyways. His education will prepare him for that.

What about my other two kids though? We were putting money away for the one, but then I had a failed tubal. That has been put on hold. They won't qualify for any special school programs, so they are going to need college.

So the disadvantaged quite often stay disadvantaged. It's not taught, it's just tough to turn things around when you can't get an education.

So sure, throw in parenting classes if appropriate, but help kids get an education so they can help their kids one. Help one generation, and they can in turn stop the cycle of poverty.

I'm grateful things are in place to help my oldest, but my younger two may never get that 'advantage' because we can't give it to them. Do I tell my kids this? No. We are still trying. When they go to get into college though, what do we tell them?

I do have one hope. They will have an advantage I didn't have. They can live at home and save the money they get from working towards their own educations. I'll continue to house and feed them.

Any little 'advantage' will help. Parenting classes will not. I would have said skip the parenting classes for my mom (she would have clobbered you if you suggested she needed any parenting classes-she is college educated, but ill), and help me to go to school and get a job that will help me get my own kids an education.

Break the cycle. Even kids of alcholics or bad parents can be helped if they don't have to kill themselves trying to better themselves the way I had to.
 
CBISH, I work with people who are all 'socially disadvantaged' either in terms of money, social skills, health etc.

The vast majority of them would be from 'working class' backgrounds.

My own upbringing was closer to middle class but never far away from working class and I always socialised best with others who were similarly on the cusp as it were.
So on that point, you may have something.
However, my customers or clients are almost all from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds or circumstances, but only a very small minority teach their children to defraud, to be aggressive, be deceiptful etc. all to their own advantage.

The result of such parenting is that the children end up as criminal adults, in my experience.

**as an aside - Hi Oleron, if you know Belfast, you might know the kind of people I am talking about, a minority that can have a big effect on the rest of us ;)

As for Gypsy or traveller culture, I know of it too, and what I am describing is very similar.

The burden of proof is a big problem here, the fraud is mostly careful enough to get away with, yet obvious enough for those who commit it to find humour in the fact. In many cases in Northern Ireland, the situation being as it is, the fraud is also protected by the threat of violence.
 
Another related question

Should basic sociology/citizenship be mandatory at school?

Would it be of any benefit to add such to the curriculum?
 
Hang in there. teachers are often smarter than you think. The kids without the jackets in my school where I work now have parents that own their own companies. They are just scaterbrained. One kid has 4 North Face jackets hanging on his hook at school. that's because he loses his jacket, and then his mom buys him a new one, and we find the old one and hang it on the hook for him. He's 13. We told him mom to stop buying him jackets. We finally told her to go to Wal Mart and buy him a jacket next time he lost one, and she about had a fit. We decided from now on when he loses all his jackets, and it's still cold here, when we find one we are taking it up to the school for the deaf and donating it.

Also, the ages of 11-15 are awful. Children are nuts. Middle school sucks. One minute my 13 year old LOVES me, and will give me a big hug or insist on daddy playing with her. Then, BOOM, she holes up in her room to play a computer game or email her buddies. She hates to go out with us, somedays...we were buying her clothes and she said, "I can see why you two got married, you are both weird!" and stomped off. If she wants something, and she doesn't want a lot, she will annoy the heck out of you until you give in. Then, she's nice for a little bit and back to annoying us again. Is this abnormal? No, because around 16 or so she will decide you aren't too bad after all. This is very typical. I hate subbing in the middle school as the kids will pull every trick they can. They will insist thier teachers allow them to listen to CDs while they work, really. They will lie lie lie and then brag about how they put one over on the sub. they hate it when I walk in as I know most of their tricks. But, I usually cut them a break because I want my job to be a little easier too.

As for doing anything like giving a kid a jacket when I was teaching, I never did so without check ing with the parents first. We had ways of doing it that we hoped helped the parents keep their dignity. If the kid didn't smell (and even then we threw that out in Middle School) the odds were the parents were doing their job. Also, I don't know how it is in Canada. But, in the US, if your kid can get into a school you will find that ability to pay has a lot to do with what you are charged. Or not charged. In fact, some schools will pay for your parents to fly out with you to visit if you are a good prospect. I know 2 girls at Harvard this happened to and they are not only there on a full ride with free computers, but they have an allowance and they are flown home for Xmas and summer. Problem is, that you need to be a strong candidate.

But, making less is a good thing when it comes to college in the US. You fill out all these forms and then you are judged on ability to pay. Don't let it keep you from getting a house, house and car payments are included. We were told to get our new car before filling out the forms! The private schools also court lower income students, they have many private scholarships that are for low income students to attend they have to give out. Low income doesn't mean poor either. I know people making $150,000 a year that get finanacil aide. So, tell them to keep the grades up. When your children hit high school go to the student advisor and say you want these kids to attend college, and what do they and you have to do. When they know you are serious, they will tell you what grades and what classes your kids need. The time to start thinking about it isn't your junior year. Also, be honest with your kids. YOu need to get these grades and take these classes. It's great if the kids save up money, but you may find that your children not working too many hours (or only working during the summer) and getting really good grades and being involved in extra activities ( like volunteering or playing a sport) will get you more money for school. If the graddes aren't there and the extras the colleges look for then you aren't going to get into college at all. Working has it's bad points.
 
Thank you Kitty, I'm paying attention whenever you post because you always have a lot of information. The part about the mom buying all the coats made me laugh. Talk about opposites ends of the stick! What is she teaching her kid?

It's great if the kids save up money, but you may find that your children not working too many hours (or only working during the summer) and getting really good grades and being involved in extra activities ( like volunteering or playing a sport) will get you more money for school. If the graddes aren't there and the extras the colleges look for then you aren't going to get into college at all. Working has it's bad points.
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My oldest will never have the grades. We know that, and encourage him nonetheless. He really doesn't talk about college. He will get technical training in the program he is in. So maybe he can think of some technical training later on where you can get grants to be a welder or capenter or something. You get the job, they tell someone you need more training, and you get the training. It's awesome if you are in that type of work. You just get a few months though, and never a degree. My son wants to build houses or be a boiler maker.

I will keep in mind for the grades for my other two big time. I have no idea how it works in Canada with extracurricular activities.

My experience was horrible, and I had some people telling us kids in High School what we needed, just not enough when applying for grants and scholarships. There were so darn few available, and they weren't enough to cover tuition, maybe just books. I couldn't even find help to get me through High School when I was on my own. I worked, and my grades did drop. This was a long time ago as well. The only kids I saw getting scholarships were the kids with the best grades...and of course they had parents that had tons of money and lived on "snob hill" (the kids didn't work... really listening to Kitty on that now).

If anyone knows more about getting into colleges in Canada, especially Alberta, I'm all ears.

I do know a girl that is applying for a student loan right now. She needs $400.00. She is cashing in an ITF account that her grandma had put together for her. Gotta have money before getting it for school.

That is where we need to start saving for all three of my kids. At least something...to avoid them having to work, but should they get student loans? Student loan interest payments for one lady I know is $111.00/month, this is on top of the student loan payment.

The whole thing is so darn frustratingly expensive.
 
eos, I LEARN so much from your posts! Hey, at least you've never whined about not having stuff and then let it be an excuse! You've gone out there and educated yourself and worked hard. My little brother has terrible dyslexia, like my younger daughter. He got training in working with glass. The guy can't read too well, but he helped rebuild the National Arboretum (like I can't spell either) and he has an album of all the glass places he has built. He also, whenever he builds a glass greenhouse or addition, drops off his glass cleaning business card. So after hours he does a booming business cleaning these things. People find they can't clean them! He owns his own house, and has a cool truck for his business. One happy guy.

Does Canada have private colleges? they might be worth checking into. I know in the US you can often get more money from a good private school than a state school. I know in the US sports or some involvment in something is very important. Kitten would not have got into Dartmouth unless she did her kayaking.

I would say that now Kitten has to do work study. I was going to work more so she could quit, because at Dartmouth it is so hard that kids that do work study get lower grades. But, she is doing research that she loves, and it will help her get into grad school. Also her grad school will be paid for as she is into science. I would say that she would not have been let into Dartmouth if she told them she wanted to study English. Schools still love girls who want to study science and math. That was a real plus we found. I wish I knew more about Canada.

The problem I found with working and going to school was that my friends got used to the money. I would save mine, or I wouldn't eat or be able to pay my share of the rent. My friends thought they were making a LOT of money. To them, it seemed like school was unimportant after awhile. Why work so hard at school when they were already making money? You get used to having money to spend. I kept going to Goodwill to get clothes. My friends also used to put in extra hours to save up for something they wanted (or to pay for the car, getting even an old beater is a bad thing). Then school suffered. Keeping your eye on the big picture down the road is hard. I finally got a job in college at the school library where I could work during the down time! That was wonderful!

One of my friends from those days is now a branch manager for McDonalds and making really good money. So, not going to college wasn't a bad thing for him. But, keeping the kids focused on the long term can be hard. Teenagers will spend their money on clothes and a car if they can.

About the rich kids. They are hilarious. But a lot of them go off to college and can't settle on a major. They kind of aimlessly go about life because they have that luxury. Kitten has someone from her elementary school (where I work) that is in her class at Dartmouth. Henry keeps changing majors. He travels the world on his parents money, but doesn't really do anything but travel. He's got too much freedom and choice. He knows in the long run he'll just take over the family business. He's never had to work for anything, and as such he will never be anything. Kitten knows she has to get grad school paid for, and she knows she has to be on her own. The Bank of Dad closes! She knows we need the money for her sister who is dyslexic, as the public schools here do squat for the learning disabled.

Your kids will be great eos as you care about them. I have lots of parents with money galore that don't give a darn.
 
Re: Another related question

Donnie said:
Should basic sociology/citizenship be mandatory at school?

Would it be of any benefit to add such to the curriculum?
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I don't think it would be of much use. I know when I was at school I tended to learn subjects with the sole aim of passing exams. I didn't register the fact that these lessons might actually be able to help me in some way. Education is wasted on the young!

I know better now and wish I had tried to evaluate and ponder on some of the fascinating stuff teachers tried to teach. This applies especialy to the subjects I didn't enjoy such as History, Religious Ed, Psychology and Politics.

I think it's all too likely that kids will treat the sociology/citizenship subjects as just another class to be 'got through' on the way to passing exams. They will fail to take on board the real value of such classes.
Besides the ones who really need this tutoring will be hiding out in the middle of a bung-hole housing estate, sniffing glue, when they should be at school.
 
Kitty, Eos,

The educational system in Canada/USA has always confused me. Can you clarify what happens in your respective countries?

In N.Ireland (mainland UK is very similar) the education system is structured thus:

Age 3-4: Nursery school. Sandpits, that kind of thing. Free for most.

Age 4-11: Primary Ed. Free unless you wish to opt for 'Preparatory Ed' which means you are favoured when it comes time for the next stage. One exam to take - 11+ exam. Based on the results of this exam the output of the schools is 'streamed' into 3 rough categories (pass, borderline, fail).

Age 11-16: Secondary Ed. Free unless you wish to pay for a higher standard of teaching, supposedly. 2 types here - Comprehensive and Grammar schools. Grammar schools are for the top 'stream', Comprehensive for the rest (not strictly accurate, money can get a Grammar school place). One set of exams to take 'GCSE's'. Children can leave school at 16 (with or without taking the exams) and get a job. If they do well they can move to the next stage.

Age 16-18: Secondary Ed - Sixth Form. Free with option to pay for better school. Catered for by Grammar schools and Sixth-form colleges. One set of exams - 'A-levels'.

Age 18-21: Undergraduate University. Entry is based on A-level results. Fees are payable to the University and student loans are taken to cover this and subsistence. One set of exams - Bachelors degree.

Age 21- 24: Postgrad. Usually sponsored by industry or government grants. Masters or PhD.

There are exception to these rules but by and large this is the roadmap. Is this similar to Canada/USA?
 
Oh dear, I'll try.

Each state is pretty much in charge of their own education and funding. Latelly the feds have tried to impose some standards with their "No child left behind" rules. The Fed govt is also supposed to fund special education, but they don't and only fund a small part of it. Funding varies state by state. The state I live in NH depends on local funding, from property taxes. The state has no income or sales tax. So, if you come from a community with a good property tax base, better schools. Some states kick in money, but in NH there is little money from the state. Each town pretty much pays for their kids.

kIndergarten - free in most places

grades 1-6 - Elementary school, free

grades 7-8 - Middle school, free

grades 9-12 - High school. Some high schools have vocational tracks. Children are allowed to choose, Advanced Placement classes are neccesary for a top level college. You can take as many of those as the school offers and you can pass. Kitten took hers in Art, Calculus, English, and 2 others (can't remember). Some colleges give you college credit for the classes. Really top colleges don't.

College- most scholarships are now given on a financial need basis, especially a top school. That means a child on welfare or from a lower income family can go for free. But they need to grades to get in. State schools have different standards. But, if you are poor or lower income your kid won't have much trouble. The problem is middle class, hey, it's going to hurt. With a top school at $40,000 a year sometimes it really hurts. I know that kitten doesn't get anymore than a work study as the system does not take into account what we pay for our other daughter to attend private school and for her very expensive tutoring ($90 and hour). What college you attend is important. In the US one problem is everyone is supposed to attend college, and many who shouldn't do. Colleges are filled with kids that aren't interested or prepared. Top schools have far too many applicants, and many really top flight kids can't get in.

Grad School- A must these days. Forget 4 years. If your child is a minority (or in Kittens case a women in a field still dominated by men) you stand a very good chance of getting it paid for. Science and math are pretty safe as far as getting a free ride. English, not so safe.

As for the early years. Most people still opt for public education. It is a real cornerstone of American life. The great equalizer. But, even a good school has a lot of budget problems. I opted for private schools, because both my girls didn't fall into the "middle". Kitten and kitten2 are both smart. Kitten needed to be pushed and challenged. She was bored still. Kitten 2 has severe dyslexia. I wanted a school that wouldn't do as little as they could get away with, I wanted a school and tutors that would do all they needed to do so she can one day attend college.

A school in Mississippi is really different than a school in Alaska. In my state, town by town things differ.

But, support for alternatives (or perhaps paying a little more for a better school) isn't very popular. I know moms with kids struggling in public school that drive Beemers and top line Land Rovers. They feel if all the more well to do families leave public education then it will really suffer. I agree with their point, but coming from a poorer background myself, I see private education as something I can give my children I wish I had had myself. Still very few children in private education though. HOme schooling is gaining in popularity though. And the children seem to be very successful, colleges are even now looking at home schooled children with respect.

Is home schooling big in Ireland?
 
Thanks for taking the time to explain.
Home schooling is not big in Ireland but boarding school is still quite popular. I went to a boarding school but attended as a day pupil.
Most of the big name grammar schools here insist on boarding for foreign students and those students who perhaps haven't met the entry criteria for the school (but who have bags of cash). The idea being that the foreign students are given extra tuition in English and the others are under close supervision from staff.
You may be surprised at the number of Middle Eastern and Asian students whose families have a long tradition of sending their children to N.Ireland for schooling. The same is true of the English public school system (we say public school when we refer to what you would call private school - stupid, I know). Our grammar schools have a superb educational reputation. The rest of the education system is desperately under-funded.

A couple of points, when you mention 'Grad School' I assume you're talking about a University? Also I've heard of American students saying they have degree's in more than one subject. In our system this would require the student to spend at least 6 years at University to achieve. Is this the case in USA?
 
We get a lot of foreign students in our "prep schools" (US name for private high schools). Kittens school got a lot of the Middle Eastern royalty, including the Jordanian princesses. That's the way she ended up going to Jordan as an exchange student.

Many college students will major in one subject and minor in another. Kitten is double majoring, quite difficult, but it can be done in 4 years if you are willing to give up sleep and your weekends. Graduate school will add many more years. But without a Masters degree and Phd in science and math, forget getting a good job. The finanacial burden for the average American family is considerable. Most students graduate with a lot of debt that they have to pay off. We are doing our best for Kitten to just get by with work/study as we don't want her burdened with the crushing debt most graduates have.

I have to say that while I grew up with the same prejudices other Americans have about boarding schools, I changed my mind once Kitten talked me into letting her go. Her school has to be one of the best high schools in the nation, if not the world. It was almost unreal in how it so perfectly educated the girls enrolled.
 
Jeff Corey said:
As well as doing well, I also hope that she does good,
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well, she is evil. But a benovolent kind of evil that allows JREFers their proper superior postition in her new world order.
 
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