Poor Parenting Skills

[Donnie]

Hi, I work in 'Social' Housing and study the subject at the same time.
In the UK one of the current buzz-words is Social-Exclusion.

This term basically refers to disadvantage based upon many different environmental factors, housing, education and health being some.

One factor brought up when discussing Social-Exclusion is poor parenting skills. This is, I believe, a term that covers the cases where parents teach their own children to disrespect all the systems and institutions of society and take advantage of them by whatever (criminal) means necessary.

Does anyoe think that there is anything that we can do about this phenomenon without removing the children from that environment before it is too late?

If we do, is this totalitarianism or Fascism?

Heavy topic I know, but i thought I would try it out here anyway.

 

[The idea]

In the UK one of the current buzz-words is Social-Exclusion.

This term basically refers to disadvantage based upon many different environmental factors, housing, education and health being some.

One factor brought up when discussing Social-Exclusion is poor parenting skills.

This is, I believe, a term that covers the cases where parents teach their own children to disrespect all the systems and institutions of society and take advantage of them by whatever (criminal) means necessary.

If parents intend to teach their children to not cheat but the children learn to cheat, then maybe the parents have bad parenting skills.

If the parents intend to teach their children to cheat, then the parents are simply bad parents and skill is not an issue.

Does anyone think that there is anything that we can do about this phenomenon without removing the children from that environment before it is too late?

If we do, is this totalitarianism or Fascism?

Isn't it a criminal offense to counsel someone to commit a crime and isn't the offense more serious if the person counselled is not a mature adult?

If you reformulate "disrespect all the systems and institutions of society" to something less vague, then there won't be any basis for an accusation of "totalitarianism" or "Fascism" when the children are taken away.

To approve of changes to legislation that governs the functioning of various system and institutions of society is to insinuate that current systems and institutions are unsatisfactory. Such an insinuation could be considered disrepectful. However, the alternative to such "disrespect" would be to classify legislators as unnecessary. That could also be considered disrespectful.

Just find an alternative to this vague idea of "disrespect[ing] all the systems and institutions of society."

 

[Donnie]

Having 'poor parenting skills' is the PC term given to parents that teach hatred, criminality, or anti-social behavour to their children.

You say that they are 'Bad' parents, and suggest the classification of a crime as a basis for having the children removed.
Have you any experience of working with the disadvantaged, impoverished or just plain crazy?
The borders are far from well defined, far from easy to distinguish.

 

[kittynh]

Well, what about the "gypsy" culture? In the past in Europe their children have been removed from their care. They do not believe they belong to any country, and taking advantage of people not of their group is considered acceptable. This includes breaking the law as they feel not bound by any laws.

 

[Jeff Corey]

One factor brought up when discussing Social-Exclusion is poor parenting skills. This is, I believe, a term that covers the cases where parents teach their own children to disrespect all the systems and institutions of society and take advantage of them by whatever (criminal) means necessary.

Does anyoe think that there is anything that we can do about this phenomenon without removing the children from that environment before it is too late?

If we do, is this totalitarianism or Fascism?

Heavy topic I know, but i thought I would try it out here anyway.

Here, "poor parenting skills" is not so narrowly defined. If a child shows signs of neglect or abuse, DSS investigators often find that the parent(s) have no idea how to raise children. They are not familiar with developmental milestones and have unrealistic expectations of their childern's behavior. For example, expecting a 6 month old to be toilet trained or an 18 month old to follow directions they can't possibly understand.
They may then turn to physical punishment as their primary training device.
These are often young, poor, single mothers with little education. DSS can reccommend parent training classes for them, often mandated by the court.

 

[Oleron]

I hadn't heard the term 'social exclusion' before but, if I understand you correctly, it is really a blanket term for socially disadvantaged, whether by poverty, location, bad parenting etc.

You ask if there's anything we can do to 'halt the slide' into anti-social behaviour, without removing the child.

I would advocate making the parents more responsible for the childs behaviour, putting pressure on them to make sure they emphasise proper values to the child and maintain strict control.

We could force the parents to attend parenting classes WITH the children.
Bad parenting is little to do with environment. I grew up in a 'bad area' and most of the kids in my peer group became 'socially excluded'. I didn't, simply because my parents were great and took their responsibility very seriously - even though they had to contend with the same social and economic pressures as the rest of the parents.
Parents are getting away with saying 'I can't control my child because of my location/money/situation. Cure all my problems and then I will be able to look after my children.'
I don't really think children should be parted from their parents unless they are in physical danger.

(Knew there had to be someone else from Belfast here!)

 

[Suezoled]

anecdote: I always thought these old roommates of mine were bad parents:

-they didn't insist on proper toilet training until the kid was 5 years old.
-they made fun of him if he cried in frustration.
-they warned the kid once. and then 4 or 5 more times if he was misbehaving. They called him names. Then they smacked him.
-they wouldn't make him bathe or brush his teeth consistently
-he's allowed to stay up to midnight. A (now 6) year old kid
-his mother waits on him and doesn't bother to teach him to help make dinner, even a salad
-he hits and beats on other kids in his age group
-he's been known to "help himself" to things like someone else's candy.
-he's lies
-the mom threatens to throw away his toys. All the time. she never does. if she does take away a toy, she gives it back the next day.
-mom assuages her own guilt of playing video games all day or having sex with her husband all the time by buying toys for him. all sorts of toys. The latest toys. The most expesive toys (and then she complains she has no money... but that's another thread)
-his mom and dad call him a little f*ck, sh*thead, etc, if they're mad at him


I rather thought this was bad parenting, although they both insist this is normal parenting. egads...

 

[Chanileslie]

anecdote: I always thought these old roommates of mine were bad parents:

-they didn't insist on proper toilet training until the kid was 5 years old.
-they made fun of him if he cried in frustration.
-they warned the kid once. and then 4 or 5 more times if he was misbehaving. They called him names. Then they smacked him.
-they wouldn't make him bathe or brush his teeth consistently
-he's allowed to stay up to midnight. A (now 6) year old kid
-his mother waits on him and doesn't bother to teach him to help make dinner, even a salad
-he hits and beats on other kids in his age group
-he's been known to "help himself" to things like someone else's candy.
-he's lies
-the mom threatens to throw away his toys. All the time. she never does. if she does take away a toy, she gives it back the next day.
-mom assuages her own guilt of playing video games all day or having sex with her husband all the time by buying toys for him. all sorts of toys. The latest toys. The most expesive toys (and then she complains she has no money... but that's another thread)
-his mom and dad call him a little f*ck, sh*thead, etc, if they're mad at him


I rather thought this was bad parenting, although they both insist this is normal parenting. egads...

Oh, no, no, no, no, no!! That is not normal parenting. That is emotionally abusive and unsupportive parenting, even it appears to be neglectful parenting. They are inconsistent and cruel for the sake of being cruel. The child has no boundries and I feel that makes children scared and they lash out in inappropriate ways such as picking on other kids, stealing, general misbehaving. This is a prime example of a spoiled child - one who is not given love, but things to compensate for love. Oh, my heart aches for that little boy.

 

[cbish]

I received an interesting book for christmas called Understanding Poverty. (I can't find it right now, so I can't site it or even give the author). It describes what it calls the "unwritten rules" for people of low, medium, and upper class. Each group has different values that they think are universally obvious to everyone. Conflict occurs when one doesn't understand the motives and values of the other groups that have been handed down generationally.

Of the poor, the present is the most important. That and survival. Personal relationships are vital. Self esteem is dependent on your social status; how you are viewed by your peers and of people you value. Perhaps this is what you are observing and it seems foreign because you are of a different class that recognizes a different set of values.

 

[Suezoled]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no!! That is not normal parenting. That is emotionally abusive and unsupportive parenting, even it appears to be neglectful parenting. They are inconsistent and cruel for the sake of being cruel. The child has no boundries and I feel that makes children scared and they lash out in inappropriate ways such as picking on other kids, stealing, general misbehaving. This is a prime example of a spoiled child - one who is not given love, but things to compensate for love. Oh, my heart aches for that little boy.

Chani, that is why I left those people to acquaint myself with others. (well, that and the girl once told me to die, just f*cking die when she was feeling moody one day.) I was not allowed to "interfere" with their parenting. If he asked me for a cup of milk, I was expected to jump up and do it. He didn't want to wash his hands after using the toilet? Not supposed to object. He didn't like the crayons his grammy gave him? oh, well.. we'll get him a better toy on the way home.
The whole thing was so convoluted and complicated. The kid's biological father is leeching off the state because he enjoys being "mentally ill" and not having to work. The current husband at times will get frustrated and YELL at the little boy "you're not my son!" because, well, biologically he's not (the irony is, the current husband is adopted, which he well knows and laments over, as he doesn't know who his "real" parents are). Current husband wants his wife to have 5 more children (they already had one together, a girl, who is "insurance" in case the little boy dies or something), even though it endangered her life to have those babies at all. (need I mention they can barely afford the 2 kids?)

It was sad and I honestly did not think this was good parenting, or positive parenting, or effective parenting... so I left. Because there was nothing I could do.

Then, if nothing else, it helped me to define what a good relationship between the child and parent is not. Small lesson, but worth noting.

 

[kittynh]

Hmm, well in Milwaukee they tried the old "if your kid doesn't attend school you do not get your welfare check". It worked. They tied some basic parenting skills to payments.

I should also note that the school where I worked in wisconsin took it as a matter of course that we all pitched in with rearing children. The school taught parenting classes that we paid the parents to attend. (they do that in Vermont too). Most teachers made sure that one or two students made it to school that had parents that weren't able to get the kids up and going (usually the parent had a hangover). The principal had cereal and milk in his office for the kids that didn't get a good breakfast. We held teacher parent conferences at Pizza Hut, or the laundramat (that was a good one) where we paid for the pizza and washing. Teachers kids clothes always had a good home when our kids outgrew them. I would go to garage sales with a list of sizes of kids I knew needed some clothes. You just did this stuff. You didn't think about taking the kids away unless you felt they were being physically harmed. A lot of these kids I feel are going to turn out fine. People hate the Hillary Clinton book, "It Takes a Village to Raise a Child" but in Wisconsin we felt that way.


I had really really bad parents. My dad put me in the hospital a few times. Since he was in law enforcement, he was respected and there was never a whiff of censure. But I had teachers that I felt cared about me, that would take me to the library after school, and I had neighbors that loved me dearly, and let me be a part of their families. My grandmother was a rock, and my big brother is still like a father to me. We are very close because we shared the brunt of the pain, and yet were determined not to every engage in that kind of behavior. You can have really nasty parents, and if you just know someone cares, you can growup and enjoy having a real family, and a very happy life.

 

[Oleron]

Hi Kitty
Your story is inspirational, it made my morning. Parenting isn't easy (as I have very recently found out! - my daughter is just 6 weeks old now) but it's not rocket science. All you have to do is put the child first, consider yourself second.

 

[Zep]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no!! That is not normal parenting. That is emotionally abusive and unsupportive parenting, even it appears to be neglectful parenting. They are inconsistent and cruel for the sake of being cruel. The child has no boundries and I feel that makes children scared and they lash out in inappropriate ways such as picking on other kids, stealing, general misbehaving. This is a prime example of a spoiled child - one who is not given love, but things to compensate for love. Oh, my heart aches for that little boy.

My sentiments exactly, Chani. Couldn't agree more.

 

[Zep]

Kitty, I just knew there was a reason why the Kittens are turning out so well. You done good, despite a rocky start!

And I love the stories of the teachers "support league". Unsung heroes - bravo to all concerned! And wouldn't it be inspirational to some people for them to hear about that and to get behind them and support them for a change?

Surely you can make them forget all this "ID science" nonsense and put that money into salaries for more inspirational teachers like that instead?

 

[Fluffy]

Sorry if this is off-topic.

Who is responsible for a child's anger and consequences of it? Is it the child itself, the parents, or the school if applicable?

Is it necessary for children to go to anger management classes.

Children I think, don't have full control of their emotions as an adult does. I would think that bad parenting skills creates anger in children. Perhaps I am wrong.

Whistler.

 

[Chanileslie]

Chani, that is why I left those people to acquaint myself with others. (well, that and the girl once told me to die, just f*cking die when she was feeling moody one day.) I was not allowed to "interfere" with their parenting. If he asked me for a cup of milk, I was expected to jump up and do it. He didn't want to wash his hands after using the toilet? Not supposed to object. He didn't like the crayons his grammy gave him? oh, well.. we'll get him a better toy on the way home.
The whole thing was so convoluted and complicated. The kid's biological father is leeching off the state because he enjoys being "mentally ill" and not having to work. The current husband at times will get frustrated and YELL at the little boy "you're not my son!" because, well, biologically he's not (the irony is, the current husband is adopted, which he well knows and laments over, as he doesn't know who his "real" parents are). Current husband wants his wife to have 5 more children (they already had one together, a girl, who is "insurance" in case the little boy dies or something), even though it endangered her life to have those babies at all. (need I mention they can barely afford the 2 kids?)

It was sad and I honestly did not think this was good parenting, or positive parenting, or effective parenting... so I left. Because there was nothing I could do.

Then, if nothing else, it helped me to define what a good relationship between the child and parent is not. Small lesson, but worth noting.

Oh Suez, I know you were being sarcastic. I was just venting my frustration because there are so many people out there like this who insist it is normal.

Those poor children. I feel for them.

 

[Chanileslie]

I have to agree with Kitty - just because one is abused as a child, does not mean one will grow up to be worthless or an abuser. It means that person just had a harder time. It is nice to know someone cares though, it makes it all seem all less hopeless and scary.

 

[CBL4]

There are lots of ways to be a bad parents – some of which are not necessarily frowned upon. In the city I live in, 94% of the children do not know the alphabet by the time they go to first grade. I see “decent” and “caring” parents sit their babies in front of the TV all day. It is amazing (and sad) to see how quickly obviously bright kids become stunted physically and intellectually.

It seems to me that this is worse than moderate emotional or physical abuse. It is possible to overcome abuse but it is impossible to overcome having your brain rot for the first 6 years of your life.

CBL

 

[Denise]

I've seen that a lot, being a parent myself. My daughter has had friends who didn't even know their telephone number at the age of 5, much less how to write or spell their own name. She's in fifth grade now and recently they had a class exercise involving proper punctuation of their home address. Some kids did not know their address.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

What drives me crazy is that people believe my son when he says we don't get him things. He loses 3 coats, and I start making him save money for another one, so he whines to his teachers and they give him one. He learns no valuable lesson about responsibility. He's 12.

He wrecks his new shoes somehow (the whole end where his toes are supposed to go is split wide open), and he doesn't tell us (just leaves them at school). Next thing I know he is wearing these completely different shoes. He says his teacher gave him them because he was going barefoot in gym class.

One time he stayed out all day without telling me where he was going, and then demanded lunch at 4 p.m. I tell him we already had lunch at lunch time, but he can have a small snack to tide him over until dinner time. He blows up and runs out the door. I find out he tells all the neighbours that I am starving him-so they feed him.

My six year old is learning to lie from him (since it has been so grandly successful at getting himself stuff and sympathy). He tells his teacher I cut up his homework when he had gotten frustrated with it and cut it up when I wasn't even in the room. His teacher feels sorry for him and gives him an extension to work on a new page.

My little con artists are driving me nuts. I only find out these things when I see the teachers at parent-teacher meetings.

I applaud the teachers who help kids, but they should check out the kids' stories first.

My kids are not hard done by. I work my touche off to make sure they have all they need, and try to teach them logical consequences. I'm not some hung over parent spending all my money on booze instead of my kids.

My kids are making us look bad though, and they keep learning to take advantage of 'the system'.

We are mean parents for trying to teach them a lesson, and who can a teacher believe nowadays?

Any advice here would be most helpful. My munchkins are too smart for their own good, and I would never dream of pulling the stunts they do. I believe in hard work and honesty. My kids are getting rewarded for lying. I'm pulling my hair out!